{"link":"https://cassiopaea.org/forum/threads/the-desire-for-positivity.58053","id":58053,"title":"the desire for ‘positivity’\n","user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","date":"2026-07-26T00:47:41+0200","path":["Forums","Cassiopaean Sandbox","What's on your mind"],"tags":[],"poll":{"title":"","answers":[]},"posts":[{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1309953,"date":"2026-07-26T00:47:41+0200","text":"since stumbling upon various channelled material, such as the law of one, cassiopaea, seth, the book of the law and other such material, i've always had an internal conflict of interest between the two polarities, the 'service-to-self' and the 'service-to-others' polarity, to use law of one terms.

although, i've always had a certain persuasion for the STS path, for it's always been rather appealing to me. since becoming aware of the two, according to RA, equally as valid paths of choice, i've always preferred the STS path and it had always seemed the more logical, desirous path to pursue. for context, i’ve only ever considered and attempted to follow the STO path once, which was fuelled more by fear rather than actual devotion, which came from a misunderstanding of a book that i was reading at the time.

and so, i must ask, out of curiosity and perhaps an attempt to see things from another perspective, why do those on this forum desire the ‘positive’ path, what makes it so appealing for you? perhaps i’m oblivious to certain fates which would await those that pursue the STS path, is there something that i’m missing?

in my mind, it seems the most desirable path, in our current circumstance, would be STS. wouldn't it be the easier of the two paths to pursue, for don't we already exist in the material and have the 'serpent's mind'? it seems like quite the head start, in my opinion.

and, according to the C’s, aren't we incapable of actually being 'positive' and that the true STO polarity remains completely incomprehensible to us, only ever being truly capable of candidacy?

perhaps it's quite different with this forum, for many here seem to have a purer form of understanding, concerning the two polarities. from the various supposedly sto-orientated people i’ve spoken with (outside of this forum), they seem to have quite a distorted view of the sto polarity and have a habit of unintentionally inverting the two paths. for example, i tried to explain, quite exhaustively, to a supposedly devout service-to-others oriented individual that even pursuing the 'positive' path is, in actuality, service-to-self, for you're doing it for the self and that it'll essentially render you lukewarm for an eternity, with no hope of progressing. he couldn’t comprehend this and, instead, chose to ignore what i had said.

and within western cultures, haven't we demonised and shunned the service-to-self path, due to an inherent fear of 'god', that 'god' is all powerful and, if defied, his vengeance shall surely be known. so the general population has a bias towards the 'positive', without actually having an understanding of what this 'positivity' would actually mean and the fate which awaits them, for, according to ra, if the two polarities were to become known to the general populace, they would find the service-to-self path 'very desirable', for the service-to-others path is the path of sacrifice and recompense, of dissolving the ego and individuality, which i don’t suspect many would be too enthusiastic about.

for those, even with a surface-level understanding of the law of one, to actively pursue the 'positive' path, to me, seems rather illogical and foolish. it usually comes across as an egotistical, 'holier than thou' echo-chamber of self-righteousness and moral superiority, which usually serves the purpose of making themselves temporarily feel good, without achieving any actual spiritual progress, which according to RA, is common when those existing in the material attempt to pursue the STO path, for it’s difficult to pursue without the expectation of ‘recompense’. of course, I have no objection to such behaviour, only to the contradiction and inversion, which can make it rather annoying.

but perhaps i'm the one inverting, which is the reason for this post. considering many on this forum are devoted to the STO path, indicates that there must be something that i’m missing.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":25,"user":"Mrs. Peel","id":1309956,"date":"2026-07-26T02:45:43+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
but perhaps i'm the one inverting, which is the reason for this post. considering many on this forum are devoted to the STO path, indicates that there must be something that i’m missing.
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I believe everyone on this forum is striving to follow "the STO path." May I ask if you've read The Wave series? \"😊\"","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":4888,"user":"Alma.Innovadora","id":1309977,"date":"2026-07-26T10:39:35+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
i've always preferred the STS path and it had always seemed the more logical, desirous path to pursue.
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opposed2flesh said:
he couldn’t comprehend this and, instead, chose to ignore what i had said.
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Interesting, isn't it? It is like when the devil presents himself to Christ in the desert.

opposed2flesh said:
according to the C’s, aren't we incapable of actually being 'positive' and that the true STO polarity remains completely incomprehensible to us, only ever being truly capable of candidacy?
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STO through the STS, we are candidates, not complete beings STO. We cannot understand what we have not reached yet.

To experience the same human/STS "weaknesses and temptations". How can we know which is which if we don't experience it and know its dynamics behind it? living through it.

For now we can glimpse what is required to be totally a being STO and STS choose based on it due to the existential duality that we have, but only when we no longer live this duality is that we can really be one or the other, understand it and act accordingly with it.

To be just STS or STO. To separate the wheat from the chaff.

But that does not mean that we cannot now choose actions mostly STS or STO and for that, we must know which ones correspond to one or the other frequency and not just because we find him "more logical, desirous path to pursue" at least not for STO, then:

opposed2flesh said:
that there must be something that i’m missing.
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As you have been suggested, read The Wave.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":2050,"user":"T.C.","id":1309989,"date":"2026-07-26T12:34:26+0200","text":"I think it’s best to forget about STS and STO and focus more on doing what you think is right.

One of the tenets of STO is to not violate other people’s free will. This is appealing to me, not only because I don’t like having my free will violated, but because I genuinely care about other people and their lessons and lives and experiences.

So by trying not to violate other people’s free will, I’m doing what I think is right. It just happens that this is an STO way of interacting with people.

So I’m not thinking about choosing an abstract ‘polarity’. I’m just thinking about doing what feels right to me.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":2302,"user":"LQB","id":1309993,"date":"2026-07-26T13:44:03+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
and so, i must ask, out of curiosity and perhaps an attempt to see things from another perspective, why do those on this forum desire the ‘positive’ path, what makes it so appealing for you? perhaps i’m oblivious to certain fates which would await those that pursue the STS path, is there something that i’m missing?
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Without going into details, for me, one major motivation derives from alignment with Truth - from the highest to lowest levels. To better understand this I third the recommendation of others above to read the Wave series.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310018,"date":"2026-07-26T18:16:19+0200","text":"
Alma.Innovadora said:
STO through the STS, we are candidates, not complete beings STO. We cannot understand what we have not reached yet.

To experience the same human/STS "weaknesses and temptations". How can we know which is which if we don't experience it and know its dynamics behind it? living through it.
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as gurdjieff taught, an individual does not necessarily need to become a murderer to understand murder, nor do they need to surrender to mechanical greed to study the mechanics of greed. one can learn these lessons through observation, not identification.

and, according to the c’s, we’re not in a very desirous position and were essentially “tricked” or “tempted” into being here. I doubt it benefits an STO being to exist within the material and experience the “weaknesses and temptations” associated with its existence.


Alma.Innovadora said:
As you have been suggested, read The Wave.
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i’ve already read it, briefly","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":17361,"user":"seve","id":1310019,"date":"2026-07-26T18:29:26+0200","text":"Understanding STO polarity means opening one’s STS mind to infinity. That alone is huge, in my opinion. And also the concept of respecting another’s free will. That is the essential lesson of the STO path, which, as the C’s have said, is the path that encompasses everything: Creation and Entropy.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310021,"date":"2026-07-26T18:42:00+0200","text":"
T.C. said:
One of the tenets of STO is to not violate other people’s free will. This is appealing to me, not only because I don’t like having my free will violated, but because I genuinely care about other people and their lessons and lives and experiences.

So by trying not to violate other people’s free will, I’m doing what I think is right. It just happens that this is an STO way of interacting with people
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but, for gurdjieff, the vast majority of humanity exists within a state of deep, mechanical ignorance, entirely reactive to external stimuli, incapable of any actual self-generated consciousness and are mainly driven by their base survival instincts. they’re completely unaware and incapable of actually helping themselves.

in my mind, it’s almost justified and necessary for those which are “awake” to violate the free will and harvest the energy of whose which are “asleep”, for the greater good of progress. and can you really violate the free will of a being that barely possesses an actual active conscious will to begin with? it is absurd to treat those which are dormant and ignorant as if they are somehow fully aware individuals, as if they are capable of actually aiding themselves.

therefore, directing them is not necessarily a bad thing. letting them waist their energy is inefficient and achieves nothing of cosmic or structural value. refusing to exploit the sleeping masses out of a misplaced sense of moral sentimentality doesn’t elevate them, instead it just drags out the process.

and if the universe operates on a gradient where energy moves from lower to higher potentials, then “predation” and infringing upon free will is simply a universal law of physics translated into sociology","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":6835,"user":"gottathink","id":1310024,"date":"2026-07-26T18:58:04+0200","text":"
and if the universe operates on a gradient where energy moves from lower to higher potentials, then “predation” and infringing upon free will is simply a universal law of physics translated into sociology
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in my mind, it’s almost justified and necessary for those which are “awake” to violate the free will and harvest the energy of whose which are “asleep”, for the greater good of progress.
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This is the zero sum game. Have you never experienced that when you give your energy and efforts to others you receive back more than you gave? And I am not referring to doing good to serve one’s own interests of social status, gaining influence or creating a dependency of others on your deeds. I mean selfless giving in the interest of genuinely wishing to see others learn and succeed.

When in life we come to realise that our existence is not necessarily a zero sum game then we see how giving to creation becomes an option that literally creates the whole fundamental dynamic of existence. As points of conscious we can participate in creation and the vastness of this experience or, dive into the eternal diminishing abyss, taking everything from creation. Which path an individual chooses is theirs. If you want to be logical about it, is not STO more interesting to the soul?","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":13564,"user":"SlipNet","id":1310031,"date":"2026-07-26T20:14:36+0200","text":"The STS/STO dichotomy is fairly easy to reason out. Look at the logical end points for each option. If you take STS to its logical end point you basically have psychopathy. If you take STO to its logical end point you have a constellation, a soul-bound social memory complex.

Seems like a no-brainer to me!\":-)\"","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":2050,"user":"T.C.","id":1310034,"date":"2026-07-26T20:38:07+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
but, for gurdjieff, the vast majority of humanity exists within a state of deep, mechanical ignorance, entirely reactive to external stimuli, incapable of any actual self-generated consciousness and are mainly driven by their base survival instincts. they’re completely unaware and incapable of actually helping themselves.

in my mind, it’s almost justified and necessary for those which are “awake” to violate the free will and harvest the energy of whose which are “asleep”, for the greater good of progress. and can you really violate the free will of a being that barely possesses an actual active conscious will to begin with? it is absurd to treat those which are dormant and ignorant as if they are somehow fully aware individuals, as if they are capable of actually aiding themselves.
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I don't get the connection you're making. What does a person's level of conscious awareness have to do with your decision to violate their free will or not? And I can think of many ways to violate the free will of an unconscious person.

Just because I can, doesn't mean I should. You can't derive that 'ought' from that 'is'. People who are asleep are choosing, on some level, to be asleep. And that's fine with me. I've got my own life and my own concerns.

opposed2flesh said:
therefore, directing them is not necessarily a bad thing. letting them waist their energy is inefficient and achieves nothing of cosmic or structural value.
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No energy is wasted. All there is is lessons.

opposed2flesh said:
refusing to exploit the sleeping masses out of a misplaced sense of moral sentimentality doesn’t elevate them, instead it just drags out the process.
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Caring about other people isn't misplaced sentimentality. It's a natural inherency of mine.

opposed2flesh said:
and if the universe operates on a gradient where energy moves from lower to higher potentials, then “predation” and infringing upon free will is simply a universal law of physics translated into sociology
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Those who feed on others are simply an appendage of a higher predator. That is a universal law of physics translated into sociology. The more you feed a predator, the more it can continue to feed. The more it feeds, the more people suffer.

By refusing to feed the system, I'm helping to lessen the suffering in the reality that I inhabit.

It sounds to me like you have some sort of character disorder. It wouldn't really matter whether it was esotericism, or politics, or psychology - you would come to the same conclusions: other people are simply meat sacks and I've decided that means I am justified in exploiting them for my own personal gain.

You've come to argue your point of view, but we don't resonate with it. Not through choice, but by nature.

And it's okay. We understand. We've studied creatures like you for years. But I'll save you some time and effort - there's no place for you here, and this post of mine, together with the previous replies, are about the most food you'll get from us.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310063,"date":"2026-07-26T23:48:10+0200","text":"
T.C. said:
I don't get the connection you're making. What does a person's level of conscious awareness have to do with your decision to violate their free will or not? And I can think of many ways to violate the free will of an unconscious person.

Just because I can, doesn't mean I should. You can't derive that 'ought' from that 'is'. People who are asleep are choosing, on some level, to be asleep. And that's fine with me. I've got my own life and my own concerns.
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as I previously stated, they’re stuck within a deep mechanical sleep, incapable of awakening, according to RA. their “choices” are merely pre-programmed loops, which essentially renders them fundamentally incapable of self-directed evolution. it remains virtually impossible for these souls to be awoken. and so, can one really “violate” someone’s will that has neither been actualised nor exercised?

as for my “decision”, if they’re choosing, at some level, to remain “sleeping” parts of creation, then wouldn’t it be beneficial for a higher intelligence to direct, harness and actually utilise their latent energy, for the greater good? they exist in a state of structural inertia, incapable of progressing.


T.C. said:
No energy is wasted. All there is is lessons.
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energy can certainly be wasted. and, if someone reacts exactly the same to an emotional trigger, makes the exact same unconscious mistake and leaks the same amount of energy, have they learned a lesson or are they really just running a mechanical program? and these two aren’t mutually exclusive, you can waste energy whilst simultaneously learning a “lesson”.
T.C. said:
And that's fine with me. I've got my own life and my own concerns.
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T.C. said:
Caring about other people isn't misplaced sentimentality. It's a natural inherency of mine.
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quite the contradiction, wouldn’t you say? and whilst you concern yourself with your own life, what of the other souls? instead, wouldn’t it be more efficient to use their “wasted” energy for yourself?

T.C. said:
It sounds to me like you have some sort of character disorder. It wouldn't really matter whether it was esotericism, or politics, or psychology - you would come to the same conclusions: other people are simply meat sacks and I've decided that means I am justified in exploiting them for my own personal gain.

You've come to argue your point of view, but we don't resonate with it. Not through choice, but by nature.

And it's okay. We understand. We've studied creatures like you for years. But I'll save you some time and effort - there's no place for you here, and this post of mine, together with the previous replies, are about the most food you'll get from us.
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it is quite amusing, really. a prevalent theme within this forum, while understandable of course, is that anyone presenting a slight disagreement or alternative approach is insulted quite harshly, which ultimately proves my point.

you’re a psychologist, apparently? I wouldn’t say a “character disorder”, rather attempting to pursue a valid, justified path, willed by the creator. perhaps you’re projecting, I can’t be sure, but I certainly don’t view others as “meat sacks”. just that, in my mind, they’re incapable of helping themselves and burden the “awakened” souls.

opposed2flesh said:
it usually comes across as an egotistical, 'holier than thou' echo-chamber of self-righteousness and moral superiority, which usually serves the purpose of making themselves temporarily feel good
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you’re almost proving my point","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310065,"date":"2026-07-27T00:10:24+0200","text":"
SlipNet said:
The STS/STO dichotomy is fairly easy to reason out. Look at the logical end points for each option. If you take STS to its logical end point you basically have psychopathy. If you take STO to its logical end point you have a constellation, a soul-bound social memory complex.

Seems like a no-brainer to me!\":-)\"
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quite the observation. but labelling the logical endpoint of STS as psychopathy reduces an entire polarity, willed by the creator, to nothing more than a clinical human mental disorder, but I see your point

and psychopathy is a neurological malfunction, which usually only affects those which are unindividualised. because they lack the energetic architecture connected to higher centres, they have no true conscience, remorse, or internal moral understanding as an individualised soul would, which is why it usually manifests as an erratic inability to process empathy and a lack of impulse control, resulting in nonsensical behaviour and social dysfunction.

by contrast, an advanced STS consciousness represents the absolute maximisation of sovereign intellect and strategic discipline. not chaotic madness but rather a hyper-rational pursuit of self-creation. according to RA, for those which are STS, cutting off empathy is a calculated, structural requirement to prevent energy leakage and maintain absolute separation from the collective, which, to them, is the most efficient way.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":1789,"user":"axj","id":1310066,"date":"2026-07-27T00:26:10+0200","text":"STS seems to be basically a trap and you inevitably end up being basically a slave to those higher up in the STS hierarchy:

A: Lord of Serpent promises its followers infinite power which they must seek infinite knowledge to gain, for which they pledge allegiance infinitely, for which they possess for all eternity, so long as they find infinite wisdom, for which they search for all infinity.

Q: (L) Well, that is a round robin... a circle you can't get out of!

A: And therein you have the deception! Remember, those who seek to serve self with supreme power, are doomed only to serve others who seek to serve self, and can only see that which they want to see.
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If that is what you want, it is up to you. But you are definitely in the "wrong bar".

opposed2flesh said:
in my mind, it seems the most desirable path, in our current circumstance, would be STS. wouldn't it be the easier of the two paths to pursue, for don't we already exist in the material and have the 'serpent's mind'? it seems like quite the head start, in my opinion.
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If you read Ra, he says that graduating as STS (95% STS) is as difficult as graduating on the STO candidate path (51% STO):

17.32 Questioner: What must be the entity’s percentage, shall we say, if he is to be harvested for the negative?

Ra: I am Ra. The entity who wishes to pursue the path of service to self must attain a grade of five, that is five percent service to others, ninety-five percent service to self. It must approach totality. The negative path is quite difficult to attain harvestability upon and requires great dedication.

17.33 Questioner: Why is the negative path so much more difficult a path to attain harvestability upon than the positive?

Ra: I am Ra. This is due to a distortion of the Law of One which indicates that the gateway to intelligent infinity be a gateway at the end of a strait and narrow path as you may call it. To attain fifty-one percent dedication to the welfare of other-selves is as difficult as attaining a grade of five percent dedication to other-selves. The, shall we say, sinkhole of indifference is between those two.
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","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310068,"date":"2026-07-27T00:50:29+0200","text":"
axj said:
STS seems to be basically a trap and you inevitably end up being basically a slave to those higher up in the STS hierarchy:
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perhaps it’s not necessarily enslavement, more so a “mutual agreement”. and, in truth, i’d rather be subordinate to those above me than dissolve my individuality and serve those around me, in a social memory complex. and isn’t an obstacle of the STO path martyrdom and having to overcome the act of being too “selfless”? which seems rather exhausting.
axj said:
If you read Ra, he says that graduating as STS (95% STS) is as difficult as graduating on the STO candidate path (51% STO):
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","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":19873,"user":"Ricardo","id":1310071,"date":"2026-07-27T01:05:14+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
for those, even with a surface-level understanding of the law of one, to actively pursue the 'positive' path, to me, seems rather illogical and foolish.
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Pointless argument here , two sides of infinity all must be.. Which what the previous posts have already stated, and according to law , serving self is a self defeating ilusion, self is not " dissolved" into a social memory complex , that would go against free will AND would break "universal Law". Further as to illustrate how logical STS is...

Session 10 December 1994 :

(...)

Q: (F) So, does this mean that we, or anyone else who is classified as STS, remains on said path, that we will eventually end up in a Black Hole?

A: Close.

(....)","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":25,"user":"Mrs. Peel","id":1310072,"date":"2026-07-27T01:05:46+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
then wouldn’t it be beneficial for a higher intelligence to direct, harness and actually utilise their latent energy, for the greater good? they exist in a state of structural inertia, incapable of progressing.
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Yes, that's what 4D STS tries to do to us in 3D, violate our free will and suck our energy.
opposed2flesh said:
by contrast, an advanced STS consciousness represents the absolute maximisation of sovereign intellect and strategic discipline. not chaotic madness but rather a hyper-rational pursuit of self-creation. according to RA, for those which are STS, cutting off empathy is a calculated, structural requirement to prevent energy leakage and maintain absolute separation from the collective, which, to them, is the most efficient way.
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An advanced STS consciousness would be the Lizzies.
opposed2flesh said:
it is quite amusing, really. a prevalent theme within this forum, while understandable of course, is that anyone presenting a slight disagreement or alternative approach is insulted quite harshly, which ultimately proves my point.
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Would you join a vegan forum and try to argue that they should eat meat, then complain when you get push back?
opposed2flesh said:
isn’t an obstacle of the STO path martyrdom and having to overcome the act of being too “selfless”? which seems rather exhausting.
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If you consider striving towards STO to be martyrdom and exhausting, no offense, but you really are in the wrong bar. \":wrongbar:\"","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310073,"date":"2026-07-27T01:19:06+0200","text":"
Mrs. Peel said:
Would you join a vegan forum and try to argue that they should eat meat, then complain when you get push back?
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certainly, but i’m not complaining about the “pushback”. i expected it and prefer it, for i only care for truth, just like you, i’m assuming. for this strange looking man to call me a “creature” and to diagnose me with some sort of “character disorder” was quite funny, is all. I could be equally as insulting, but I chose to refrain. but, concerning your comparison, does it not just reduce a comprehensive study of universal physics and the multi-dimensional reality down to a dogmatic, tribal echo chamber? although again, I do see your point","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":25,"user":"Mrs. Peel","id":1310074,"date":"2026-07-27T01:24:07+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
although again, I do see your point
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My point is you seem to condone and resonate more with STS, which is the hyperdimensional control system, and consider yourself an advanced intelligence for doing so. And that is just not what this forum is about.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":276,"user":"John G","id":1310075,"date":"2026-07-27T02:10:37+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
perhaps it’s not necessarily enslavement, more so a “mutual agreement”. and, in truth, i’d rather be subordinate to those above me than dissolve my individuality and serve those around me, in a social memory complex. and isn’t an obstacle of the STO path martyrdom and having to overcome the act of being too “selfless”? which seems rather exhausting.
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Even from a selfish point of view the STS path is tough on the physical body and recycles back to first density rocks before ever getting to 6th density so you aren't gaining anything. Being STO candidate nice just seems like the nice thing to do. 3rd density STO candidates don't have to always fight with their hands tied. Even 4th density STO can do more fight-like things than 6th density but anything a Julius Caesar-like STO candidate had to do for the greater good would still make him feel sadness for having to do what he had to do. Caesar didn't seem to have too much of a problem with being too selfless.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310076,"date":"2026-07-27T02:59:55+0200","text":"
Mrs. Peel said:
My point is you seem to condone and resonate more with STS, which is the hyperdimensional control system, and consider yourself an advanced intelligence for doing so. And that is just not what this forum is about.
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objectively, from a rational point of view, would I be wrong to consider myself an advanced intelligence, compared to the masses? for, according to both the C’s and Ra, the masses are essentially “asleep”, and roughly half of the population don’t actually have individualised souls? I don’t think that’s too of an egotistical thing to say

i’m aware of what this forum is about and have been using it for years, quite respectfully. I respect and admire those within this forum that have put the effort into the pursuit of knowledge, especially when faced with such challenges","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":4888,"user":"Alma.Innovadora","id":1310090,"date":"2026-07-27T07:23:18+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
as gurdjieff taught, an individual does not necessarily need to become a murderer to understand murder, nor do they need to surrender to mechanical greed to study the mechanics of greed. one can learn these lessons through observation, not identification.
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Exactly, for those who can observe.

opposed2flesh said:
and, according to the c’s, we’re not in a very desirous position and were essentially “tricked” or “tempted” into being here. I doubt it benefits an STO being to exist within the material and experience the “weaknesses and temptations” associated with its existence.
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Yes, that's why they and together with the whole collinear team, do as much as possible something called "self-work". I think you either missed that part.

On "The Wave" you will know more about it.

opposed2flesh said:
objectively, from a rational point of view, would I be wrong to consider myself an advanced intelligence, compared to the masses? for, according to both the C’s and Ra, the masses are essentially “asleep”, and roughly half of the population don’t actually have individualised souls? I don’t think that’s too of an egotistical thing to say
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No, you wouldn't be wrong. You would be objectively doing what corresponds to an individual who has chosen that path.

opposed2flesh said:
i’m aware of what this forum is about and have been using it for years, quite respectfully.
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opposed2flesh said:
perhaps it’s not necessarily enslavement, more so a “mutual agreement”. and, in truth, i’d rather be subordinate to those above me than dissolve my individuality and serve those around me, in a social memory complex.
Click to expand...

Then you should know that we are not collinear with your choice and this is a dead end.

Rubbing from your point of view what we have already read, from what others with a few steps later have broken down so that others can understand it, will not make us change about what we have learned and chosen.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20403,"user":"undistinguished","id":1310098,"date":"2026-07-27T09:56:09+0200","text":"Great opening post! I always hoped we could have more discussion about the STS/STO, because it's not always that simple!
In my mind a certain level of STS is necessary. You need to love yourself. Experiment on yourself before giving advice to others. Like it was mentioned above, service-to-others through service-to-self.

We are all connected in this living and intelligent world of thought, and basically what I do to others, I do to myself, and it works the other way around too; What I do to myself, I do to others. I believe that at the higher levels (6D) the difference between me and you is not so noticeable. I guess we still have some form of individualism at those levels, but at 6D we understand each other so profoundly, that individuality basically loses it's meaning. Imagine if I could see through your eyes, feel your feelings, hear your thoughts, remember your memories etc... At that point it doesn't really matter if I do things to myself or yourself, even if we were still separate entities. Now, in this 3D realm, it's much harder to notice the connection. But deep down we are all the same and connected.

One problem with service-to-others is that STO can't force their help (free will and all that). So that leaves STOs in kind of a passive state, where they can't correct the wrong unless asked by the wrongdoer. But you can still be active within yourself. So be kind and loving to yourself, and lead by an example : ) Do things only you can do, respect others, and remember that at this level (3D) there are very few divine ultimate truths. Everyone has their own perspective, and their own truths. None of them are less correct, only a matter of choice and perspective.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":21264,"user":"Sindy-T.S.R","id":1310099,"date":"2026-07-27T10:28:58+0200","text":"
Ricardo said:
Session 10 December 1994 :

(...)

Q: (F) So, does this mean that we, or anyone else who is classified as STS, remains on said path, that we will eventually end up in a Black Hole?

A: Close.
Click to expand...

@opposed2flesh, every decision has its consequences.
For 20 years, this forum has explained in great detail the consequences of choosing the STO and STS paths.
Personally, I'm really tired of wallowing in the same mud over and over again.

Session 14 July 1996​

Laura said:
Q: (L) And some of the manifestations of a Realm Border Crossing are that some people graduate or transition to 4th density, that their awareness changes, everything changes, the playing field is leveled. So, what happened in Germany was a 'practice run' but what is going to happen is that the 'playing field' is going to be leveled, so it will not be exactly the same scenario, is this a correct assessment?

A: Maybe. Alright, my dear, you want the facts, so we will give them to you, and hopefully you will comprehend. If not now, then when necessary maybe... Fact number one: All there is is lessons. Fact two: this is one big school. Fact three: Timing as you perceive it, is never, NEVER definite. Fact four: What is to happen, as you state it, is a ways off, and will not occur until you have reached that point on the learning cycle, and you are not close yet. Now ponder before more facts are given!!

Q: (L) Okay, this being one infinite school, and we all seem to be wandering around in the darkness...

A: Fact five: The learning cycle is variable, and progress along it is determined by events and circumstances as they unfold.

Q: (L) So, the events and circumstances of our lives, individually and collectively, can indicate where we are on this learning cycle? And we are asking to have things told to us, or revealed to us about things which are, in themselves, the necessary lessons? And it would be virtually useless to be told about them since they must be experienced?

A: Partly correct. If you want hints, then hints shall we give. But, if you are looking for a "road map?," forgetitski!!

Q: (L) Okay, we want some hints. And [the physicist] Ark wants some hints, too! He wants to know if we can invent a tool that enhances free will?

A: No tool is needed because of facts 3, 4, and 5.

Q: (L) Ummm... So, when a person is being hypnotized and controlled from outside, because that is the matter of concern we were discussing earlier, they are hypnotized and controlled until they learn to stop it?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) So, using the analogy of the pig sty, they just have to wallow in it and suffer until they have had enough?

A: Using your analogy of the bicycle: Is there a tool which makes it unnecessary for the child to learn how to ride the bicycle in order to know how to ride it?!?

Q: (MM) Don't you get more free will by assimilating knowledge?

A: Yes!! Yes!!

Q: (L) So, in other words, knowledge and awareness makes you aware that you have free will, and also makes you aware of what actions actually ARE acts of free will, and therefore, when you know or suspect the difference between the lies and deception and truth, then you are in a position to be in control of your life?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) Ark also wants to ask... well, his problem is faith, as he said it to me.

A: Faith comes also from knowledge, and as we have stated before... False knowledge is worse than no knowledge at all!!!!!
Click to expand...

@opposed2flesh, do you want to return to "the cosmic soup"?
Okay!! Perfect!! \"👍\"\"👍\"

Session 4 July 2015​

Laura said:
Q: (L) Well, there's a little mystery since that's where Vincent Bridges died. People there at the "alchemical museum" he was associated with and which was in the same building where he claimed he lived, all insisted that he didn't die there. On the funeral home website where the obituary was published, and other articles published on a couple of web sites, say he did die there just a few hours before his play was supposed to have premiered. So, it seems pretty certain that he died there. And the people we talked to at the museum all knew him, knew his work, what he was doing there and so on, but they all said “no”, he didn’t die there. Why are these people lying about that? Why are they claiming that he didn't die there? One of them even said that she thought he went to Canada and died there. Why are they lying about it?

A: Because of the circumstances of his death.

Q: (L) What circumstances would those be?

(Perceval) Was he necromancing?

(L) Was he engaged in some kind of “working” - trying to call down the Ophanic angels of Edward Kelley?... I mean, what circumstances?

[No answer]

(L) Why don't you want to tell us what the circumstances are?

A: Give us a moment to access and assess.

(Galatea) Okay, take your time!

A: Such activities are "veiled".

Q: (L) Such activities as what?

A: Those involving what are usually called the "Dark Arts".

Q: (Andromeda) It was the girl in the museum that said he died in Canada... It was right after you {Laura}asked if he had died there that she said, "I dunno, it was really weird." Then she said “maybe it was in Canada”, but she did say it was “really weird” when you asked about his death.

(L) So, maybe this is something we shouldn't have too explicit details on...?

(Chu) Was she the one who said, "Oh, all these people who try to contact..."

(L) That was the one in the bar. She said something about people coming there and trying to contact Dee and Kelley and their spirits and so forth. She said it as though such people were stupid or gullible and suckers.

(Andromeda) And this other girl, when she said something about how it was really weird, she caught herself in an obvious way. It sounded like she almost was going to say something else.

(L) So, something strange did happen there. Is it better if we don't ask for explicit details?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) Because we don't want to look into such darkness because it may look back. So, our idea was that perhaps Vincent Bridges was involved in things that were even directed at us and they bounced back at him. But there might be some energies left that were aimed in our direction that we might want to block or cut off; I also had the impression that Vincent was somehow not “free”, so to say, and maybe a little cleansing could help him, too; so that was what we were focused on doing in our particular activities. Were we successful in those activities?

A: Respecting yourselves, yes, but Vincent is still "frozen".

Q: (L) Frozen?

(Pierre) What does it mean, frozen?

(L) What does "frozen" mean?

A: Stuck.

Q: (L) He's stuck? What will be the... Can we even ask this? Can he get unstuck?

A: Think about Gurdjieff's "Immortal Thing".

(Galatea) So no, he's not ever going to be unstuck then.

Q: (L) Well, Gurdjieff says that Immortal Things still only have a limited shelf life even on astral planes. Eventually, they kind of like dissolve or dissipate. Is that true?

A: Yes

Q: (L) Well, that's seriously unpleasant.

(Galatea) Is he gonna come back as a demon?

(Perceval) Is he bound for the "cosmic soup", the primordial soup they mentioned before?

A: Yes
Click to expand...
","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":8018,"user":"luc","id":1310106,"date":"2026-07-27T11:43:54+0200","text":"Our advantage of living in an STS world and being "programmed by default" to live in a more or less STS mode, is that once we become aware of it and seek to understand it, indeed by the very act of struggling against it, soul-searching and seeking truth about ourselves, our personal existence, and the world, we can get an understanding of what the STS path entails and where it leads.

Which is: the STS path can only logically lead to ever-more extreme lies about yourself and the power you really have in the grand scheme of things, and ever-more extreme actions of violating others' free will. There is a reason why child rape, satanic rituals etc. are so rampant among the elite classes. And ignorance of the consequences of one's actions (STS being a necessary part of creation, but ultimately a dead end in terms of development). Sure, the STS path will entail the bliss of power, material gains etc., but these are flashes in an ultimately miserable existence that constantly needs to hide, lie, and self-delude.

Once I realized this at least to some degree, I just felt it's not for me \"🤷‍♂️\"","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":49,"user":"Ruth","id":1310112,"date":"2026-07-27T12:51:00+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
but, for gurdjieff, the vast majority of humanity exists within a state of deep, mechanical ignorance, entirely reactive to external stimuli, incapable of any actual self-generated consciousness and are mainly driven by their base survival instincts. they’re completely unaware and incapable of actually helping themselves.
Click to expand...
Yes, that does seem to be the way things are with humanity. The vast majority are mechanically ignorant, a few others seek knowledge and to move away from that.

The majority .... "helps" themselves to do what? And who are you to judge what constitutes "help" for any particular person as well as how they should go about helping themselves?

opposed2flesh said:
n my mind, it’s almost justified and necessary for those which are “awake” to violate the free will and harvest the energy of whose which are “asleep”, for the greater good of progress. and can you really violate the free will of a being that barely possesses an actual active conscious will to begin with? it is absurd to treat those which are dormant and ignorant as if they are somehow fully aware individuals, as if they are capable of actually aiding themselves.
Click to expand...
Maybe not, but that doesn't justify preying on or parasitizing people just so they can "wake up". Some may never wake up, but you've chosen to prey on them or become a parasite simply because they are "asleep". That is violating their free will.

opposed2flesh said:
therefore, directing them is not necessarily a bad thing. letting them waist their energy is inefficient and achieves nothing of cosmic or structural value. refusing to exploit the sleeping masses out of a misplaced sense of moral sentimentality doesn’t elevate them, instead it just drags out the process.
Click to expand...

It's simply a choice not to become a parasite. You can appreciate (and help) others when (or if) they ask for it, rather than enslaving them and using them for your own benefit.

I see STS and STO on a continuum. Our current environment/planet is STS because there are more individuals on this planet running around violating free will and imposing their own will, (as well as hierachies) on others.

At the extreme end of STS, you'd find a black hole. It destroys everything and creates nothing. STO is more of a mystery to most of us here in STS land. It's about not violating free will, giving when asked (as long as it doesn't disadvantage anyone - including oneself). It represents the creative principle.

I see Evil as something which is strongly STS. It eventually destroys itself, but it has to live off the lives and creativity of others, just like a parasite and it deliberately harms and uses others in order to gain power and promote itself.

That is why I see it as strongly STS, and why I chose to gravitate towards the concept of STO.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":17361,"user":"seve","id":1310118,"date":"2026-07-27T15:04:49+0200","text":"What is fundamental from a human perspective is having been able to find, in a quest to understand the human condition, an alternative to the Spirit of the Predator. Being able to escape—even for just a moment, on a philosophical level before even applying it to our lives—from this spirit is an essential karmic lesson in 3D STS. This alone is an invaluable treasure in choosing a mindset that leans toward the STO polarity.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":17462,"user":"Steph_rivers","id":1310128,"date":"2026-07-27T16:37:17+0200","text":"The answer to this is quite simple. You FEEL the conflict.

When one develops the ability to self observe oneself: The Thoughts that flow through you, along with the emotions that they summon... connect that with the actions that you express in the physical world, both what you do by yourself when no one is watching and what you do with other people... they either make you feel like you've assembled a piece of your heart, even if just temporarily. In those moments you feel more alive, more connected to something greater than than yourself that you have ever felt in your life. You strive to understand this feeling of wholeness, because it is a longing that is deeper than anything you can dominate and obtain in this physical world. In this quest for truth (real truth, not subjective wishful thinking) one starts to see glimpses of the preciousness of life itself, especially in the presence of the most defenseless creatures, our greatest gifts from the Creator itself, our children, and all other living things, whom humanity has died over and over and will continue to die over and over to protect.

or in the "self gratifying/predatory" latter of the thoughts and emotions... they'll make you feel empty, hollow, hungrier than ever before. It is extremely satisfying though in the moment. It's so tasty, and this life gives it to you if whatever flavor you like as long as you are willing to take it... then its gone, and you need to TAKE MORE in order to feel satisfied. In this quest for self gratification and or power, you will subdue whomever you please to get what you want, and this has no limitations, obviously, including human children. It seems STS follows this path regardless of what one's initial beliefs and morals are, because once you abuse yourself (or others) long enough, as a souled individual you notice (or not) that you are merely a vessel, a feeding tube that is being USED to feed a hyperdimensional or non physical PARASITE that is masquerading as your own consciousness and desires, and that influence grows until your own sovereignty is gone. That energy you take is not yours, it passes through you momentarily and your own life essence is extracted as well, but one continues because he is promised power though from what I see, it is just a shinier/flashier chain around your neck. You surrender the last of your free will to the desires of your parasitic master.

If you do not feel this conflict, then, I suppose your soul (if you have one) has been compartmentalized to such a degree that you cannot ever hear or feel a whisper from it, and you have chosen your path. Which is fine of course, as your existence is necessary for our learning and the balance of the universe itself.

You came asking for understanding, these people giving you just that. If you cannot understand or even fathom a single point these people have given, then you wear the STS frequency resonance vibration well, and if you are insulted by this, I don't know what to tell you.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":2914,"user":"Andrew","id":1310131,"date":"2026-07-27T17:14:30+0200","text":"@opposed2flesh couple questions for you here, because I often think about this myself.

Do you ultimately seek non-existence? Or the closest equivalent to it.

Do you desire to destroy creation rather than contribute to it?

Would you be ok with engaging in the same/similar activities the elites do with Children?

Or, potentially needing to off your loved ones if it meant you could rise in power?

If the answer is no to any of that, then you're likely not what 4D STS wants.

I would even go so far to say, those questions are tame in relation to what would actually be required of you to advance to 4D STS.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":5393,"user":"Pinocchio","id":1310141,"date":"2026-07-27T18:49:27+0200","text":"Socrates said something along the lines of, paraphrasing "acting against one's true nature means acting out of ignorance—pursuing wealth, fame, or bodily safety at the expense of the soul's health." Iirc Caesar said something along the lines of being true to one's nature and having no fear. One of the core principles of stoicism is to Know Thyself. While I don't fully understand STO, it seems right, and as FDR, I think, said, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself." So I'm going to pursue what seems right and what resonates with me and that's an STO path.

When I was very young, very early teens probably, a friend and I were playing with bb guns, taking target practice at telephone poles, etc and I shot a pigeon. Thinking it was dead, and probably acting a fool to showoff or whatever, I picked it up, spread its wings and was imitating flying it, like a toy. You know that thing owls do with their heads, spinning completely around backwards? Kind of freaky? Well, while 'flying' it about its head spun all the way around and looked at me in my eyes. In that moment, and it's seared into my brain, I realized it was suffering and I got scared and dropped it. While I've done many, too many, things I am ashamed of in this life, moments like that show me that that isn't who I want to be. Full sts for me just isn't in my nature or desirable. (Why would I want to hurt those I love?) And it certainly isn't right action from a moral perspective. The golden rule is to treat others as we would like to be treated. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." If you like being preyed upon and that's a 'good' for you, being preyed upon and preying upon others, perhaps STS is more in line with your nature, though you'd have to discover that for yourself.

To me it sounds like you are operating out of fear. Fear of losing one's self. Fear of being weak and preyed upon, etc. So your solution is to prey on others so you can 'advance.' It sounds like operating out of fear. Additionally, I expect that, while you may not even be aware of it, part of this exchange you've opened is likely not so much an effort to have a dialogue so much as it is that you're actually being used and operating as an agent of darkness to feed on and possibly lead some of the flock astray. Osit","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":2655,"user":"Seamus","id":1310148,"date":"2026-07-27T19:49:24+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
i’ve already read it, briefly
Click to expand...
Perhaps it's time for a second, closer read...

You might be interested in Darkness Over Tibet too, it's in the recommended reading list.

opposed2flesh said:
certainly, but i’m not complaining about the “pushback”. i expected it and prefer it, for i only care for truth, just like you, i’m assuming. for this strange looking man to call me a “creature” and to diagnose me with some sort of “character disorder” was quite funny, is all. I could be equally as insulting, but I chose to refrain. but, concerning your comparison, does it not just reduce a comprehensive study of universal physics and the multi-dimensional reality down to a dogmatic, tribal echo chamber? although again, I do see your point
Click to expand...
Your posts are full of assumptions. If you stick around and observe you will see that this forum attracts plenty of character disturbed individuals. You haven't posted much and your tone is confrontational and your account name and avatar pic are kind of weird so that can make people wonder.

Here's some advice for you: stop arguing here in this thread and instead put your time and effort into studying the wave and at the very least run the recommended reading list through some AI and familiarize yourself a bit more with the work we do here before you start another thread.

If you want to merge onto a highway you would get a car and learn to drive and get up to speed and make sure you're going with the flow of traffic right? Same idea.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":17307,"user":"Asa","id":1310150,"date":"2026-07-27T20:03:46+0200","text":"
Andrew said:
@opposed2flesh couple questions for you here, because I often think about this myself.

Do you ultimately seek non-existence? Or the closest equivalent to it.

Do you desire to destroy creation rather than contribute to it?

Would you be ok with engaging in the same/similar activities the elites do with Children?

Or, potentially needing to off your loved ones if it meant you could rise in power?

If the answer is no to any of that, then you're likely not what 4D STS wants.

I would even go so far to say, those questions are tame in relation to what would actually be required of you to advance to 4D STS.
Click to expand...
Some good points there, and it took reading Michael Topper's work to see that I was, albeit unconsciously, on a committed STS path at one point. Specifically, I pursued certain Buddhist practises, the explicit goal of which is 'Nibbana', or the absolute dissolution of a sense of self into some kind of ultimate whole. This is promoted by many doctrines as a noble and high spiritual aim - which, from a certain perspective, it could be - but the Topper material, and Laura's helpful distillation of its essence, helped me to recognize the practise lead to a goal of rejecting creation, and rolling over and going back to an eternal cosmic sleep. I also think that deception is excellently addressed in the Ilarion's Darkness Over Tibet book.

With hindsight, I don't think that my essence is truly aligned with that goal. I just think that the pain of day to day existence, rooted in a Connection Survival Style as conceived of in the book Healing Developmental Trauma, made such aims appear to be attractive and, indeed, noble. The STS paths are not all as obvious as those practised by the Epstein class, which your query around 'seeking non-existence' elucidates nicely.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":19101,"user":"EmeraldR","id":1310157,"date":"2026-07-27T20:41:31+0200","text":"

Darkness Over Tibet Illion T.​


link to text/book (free-no cost)

https://archive.org/details/in.gov.ignca.10097/page/n7/mode/2up

\"archive.org\"

Darkness over Tibet : Illion, Theodore : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

This book was copied from the amazing and wonderful PAHAR: Mountains of Central Asia Digital Dataset, a labor of love by two dedicated and talented historians....
archive.org
","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310184,"date":"2026-07-28T03:52:45+0200","text":"
Andrew said:
Do you ultimately seek non-existence? Or the closest equivalent to it.
Click to expand...
certainly not. in fact, the thought of non-existence or dissolution, followed by a recycling back into primal matter terrifies me. which, as of now, is the main obstacle that challenges my understanding

Andrew said:
Do you desire to destroy creation rather than contribute to it?
Click to expand...
again, perhaps not. I enjoy creation and all that comes with it. although, I suppose it would mainly be associated with the "negative" aspects of creation. I certainly don’t enjoy sharing, giving unconditional love or the thought of losing one's ego, which could also be viewed as another form of "dissolution", in a way. but regardless, life often feels quite effortless and light for me. i’m certainly not in opposition to it, nor do i desire to "overcome" or to destroy it, which is usually a pathological trait

I desire to contribute, and surely I do, for the foundational axiom of creation is to experience all possible facets of creation, regardless of whatever path one ultimately chooses to pursue

although, occasionally, I do see myself as the ultimate leader of creation and that others should serve my will and my purpose—something that i've spent much time pondering..

Andrew said:
Would you be ok with engaging in the same/similar activities the elites do with Children?
Click to expand...
as Ra stated, we exist within a culture which is monochrome, unable to truly pierce the veil of duality and see beyond certain acts that would often be classed as “righteous” or “wicked” and to see that, in reality, these acts are still that of the creator, for prime creator blinks neither at the light nor the darkness. and, in my mind, what purpose could these acts possibly serve? perhaps except blackmail and the harvesting of energy, a tool for the elites. is it really a requirement?

Andrew said:
Or, potentially needing to off your loved ones if it meant you could rise in power?
Click to expand...
yes, which i’ve, believe it or not, contemplated for quite some time. from a rational perspective, I perceive myself as being more advanced than those of the people I find myself amongst. it would certainly be more beneficial if I were in power and could somehow shepherd the masses. in my head, I often find myself belittling those around me; I truly cannot help but see them as inferior, which they surely are. In my personal life, I frequently find myself in these positions. and, from my own experience, affection and empathy are often not too useful. although, whilst I certainly do feel empathy and enjoy the emotional connection, I try to remain detached and logical. in the past year or two, starting from when i was 18, i began, as a conscious choice, to block out empathy and affection. this has been an almost ecstatic experience and is, according to ra, one of the first tasks of a seeker that wishes to pursue the sts path. and now, whenever i find myself in situations where i feel as if empathy or remorse should be present, there is almost none to be found, except a feeling of lightness and clarity. although, it still takes quite a conscious effort for this to work, you can certainly train yourself","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310186,"date":"2026-07-28T04:13:41+0200","text":"
Seamus said:
Perhaps it's time for a second, closer read...

You might be interested in Darkness Over Tibet too, it's in the recommended reading list.
Click to expand...
perhaps you’re right, “ambassador”. and i’ve read darkness over tibet multiple times, which was actually one of my favourite books for quite some time

Seamus said:
Your posts are full of assumptions. If you stick around and observe you will see that this forum attracts plenty of character disturbed individuals. You haven't posted much and your tone is confrontational and your account name and avatar pic are kind of weird so that can make people wonder.
Click to expand...
and what assumptions would those be? and, to my knowledge, I haven’t been even the slightest bit confrontational; I only ever desired an alternative perspective. i’ve been rather polite and respectful, in my opinion..

Seamus said:
Here's some advice for you: stop arguing here in this thread and instead put your time and effort into studying the wave and at the very least run the recommended reading list through some AI and familiarize yourself a bit more with the work we do here before you start another thread.
Click to expand...
these two don’t necessarily have to be mutually exclusive, I suppose. there’s many which would surely enjoy and benefit from such an interaction, for what harm has it done?

and I certainly will reread the wave, which was my intention since it was first suggested, including any other literature that was recommended","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":2914,"user":"Andrew","id":1310188,"date":"2026-07-28T04:26:54+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
is it really a requirement?
Click to expand...

It's not that it's a requirement, it's more so about having no internal objection to engaging in such activities if it was required of you.

opposed2flesh said:
i began, as a conscious choice, to block out empathy and affection.
Click to expand...

You will do as is in your nature to do.

And as you stated, it must be a conscious choice, with full conscious intent, to orient toward and advance toward that path.

However, keep in mind that not even Hitler graduated to 4D STS and quite, perhaps not surprisingly, it was Himmler and Goering who did.

And take another 4D STS graduate, Genghis Khan for example.

Despite the amount of power and domination he achieved while here in 3rd Density, once he got to 4D STS, his mighty stature was reduced to nothing more than a shipping clerk.

Are you greater than Genghis Khan? Have you achieved anything remotely to the level of these men?

If you were to make it there, through the grit of intentional malevolence and domination of those around you, are you content with starting at the very bottom of the totem pole?

Serving as a slave under those above you and having to fight your way through the ranks through intense struggle and suffering?

If that all sounds appealing to you - the competitive and backstabbing nature of 4D STS - I think you know what your intrinsic nature is and don't require this network for anything.

Your job is to work alone, not to participate here - if an STS graduate is truly, your path.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310193,"date":"2026-07-28T05:25:02+0200","text":"
Andrew said:
It's not that it's a requirement, it's more so about having no internal objection to engaging in such activities if it was required of you.
Click to expand...
if it were, then I certainly wouldn’t. and, unfortunately, I do find myself fantasising of these acts rather frequently, which perhaps is the frequency that I now find myself resonating within. although, I will say that these desires make me feel invigorated, ecstatic even, not necessarily “bad” or “ashamed” as some would assume

Andrew said:
However, keep in mind that not even Hitler graduated to 4D STS and quite, perhaps not surprisingly, it was Himmler and Goering who did.
Click to expand...
yes, for hitler often put his people before himself; he was rather selfless in this regard. interestingly, I find myself only caring for my race only because people will usually associate certain attributes of your race with you as an individual. and considering the aryan race is superior to all others, we should, by nature, be the rulers

Andrew said:
And take another 4D STS graduate, Genghis Khan for example.
Click to expand...
perhaps I consider myself more akin to rasputin, actually \":rolleyes:\"

Andrew said:
Are you greater than Genghis Khan? Have you achieved anything remotely to the level of these men?
Click to expand...
the potential is certainly within me, perhaps not for this lifetime but for the lifetimes that have yet to come. ghenghis khan, over the course of many life experiences, honed and built upon his chosen polarity, which eventually manifested as a great ruler, which is worthy of admiration
Andrew said:
If you were to make it there, through the grit of intentional malevolence and domination of those around you, are you content with starting at the very bottom of the totem pole?

Serving as a slave under those above you and having to fight your way through the ranks through intense struggle and suffering?
Click to expand...
again, perhaps i’d rather be a “slave” and serve those above me than to dissolve my individuality and ego, to serve those of a social memory complex. interestingly, it seems more appealing and engaging than what the alternative could offer","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":2914,"user":"Andrew","id":1310196,"date":"2026-07-28T05:58:13+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
interestingly, it seems more appealing and engaging than what the alternative could offer
Click to expand...

Well then there you have it. Perhaps there is nothing you're 'missing'. And just need to be the best STS oriented being within your capability and capacity. But I reiterate once more, your work is to be done alone.

There is nothing networking here will do for you.

If you've chosen the STS pathway, then engaging in networking here is detracting from your goal rather than enhancing it.

And at 95% requirement, you can't afford to lose polarity.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":30,"user":"Joe","id":1310203,"date":"2026-07-28T07:26:09+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
but perhaps i'm the one inverting, which is the reason for this post. considering many on this forum are devoted to the STO path, indicates that there must be something that i’m missing.
Click to expand...

The vast majority of human beings are naturally inclined towards STO. It's just difficult to put into practice all the time because, apparently, being incarnated tends one towards STS due to the limitations and ignorance inherent in being in the body. So it's not dogma, it's not even a 'choice' really. It's part of human beings' nature to be inclined towards STO, because "no man is an island".","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":30,"user":"Joe","id":1310204,"date":"2026-07-28T07:38:33+0200","text":"
Steph_rivers said:
If you do not feel this conflict, then, I suppose your soul (if you have one) has been compartmentalized to such a degree that you cannot ever hear or feel a whisper from it, and you have chosen your path. Which is fine of course, as your existence is necessary for our learning and the balance of the universe itself.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. I think for most people there is plenty of time to get to the point where they feel this conflict.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":30,"user":"Joe","id":1310207,"date":"2026-07-28T08:12:41+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
but labelling the logical endpoint of STS as psychopathy reduces an entire polarity, willed by the creator, to nothing more than a clinical human mental disorder
Click to expand...

psychopathy is just one manifestation, or perhaps a caricature, of extreme STS orientation. That's just one reference we have in 3D life, I don't think it can be said to be the "logical endpoint" of STS.

opposed2flesh said:
and psychopathy is a neurological malfunction, which usually only affects those which are unindividualised. because they lack the energetic architecture connected to higher centres, they have no true conscience, remorse, or internal moral understanding as an individualised soul would, which is why it usually manifests as an erratic inability to process empathy and a lack of impulse control, resulting in nonsensical behaviour and social dysfunction.
Click to expand...

I'd say that those of advanced STS polarity with individualized souls also have no true conscience or remorse etc. They're like psychopaths, but just smarter, and less prone to "nonsensical behavior". They probably have an "internal moral understanding", they just don't care. Basically, they know all these things that STO aspire to and live, they just think it's stupid, from their perspective. The real decider here is which of the orientations is consistent with expansion of awareness and understanding and which tends towards limitation and self-referencing. After careful thought, the logical conclusion seems to be that STO favors the former and STS the latter.

opposed2flesh said:
by contrast, an advanced STS consciousness represents the absolute maximisation of sovereign intellect and strategic discipline. not chaotic madness but rather a hyper-rational pursuit of self-creation. according to RA, for those which are STS, cutting off empathy is a calculated, structural requirement to prevent energy leakage and maintain absolute separation from the collective, which, to them, is the most efficient way.
Click to expand...

Cutting off empathy leads to isolation from others, naturally. If it is true that "no man is an island" and that all beings laboring under the belief that they are separate and sovereign are, in fact, part of a larger 'group soul' (or whatever you want to call it), then that's a pretty big mistake and any pathway based on that belief cannot have any real future.

Note, this would be true for STO and STS. The famous "we are legion".

It would make sense that STS 'forces' would want to encourage humans to believe they are "sovereign", thus encouraging them to be more contractile and see others as mere exploitable extensions of the self. The 'big reveal' happens when such a person realizes that they cannot endure alone, they are not "sovereign", but are part of a collective also, and having sufficiently chosen STS, are part of a very special hierarchy where the "higher ups" eat the lower downs. And none should be offended, or squeamish about that, because after all, it's "the most efficient way to prevent energy leakage".

Basically, there is no "separation from the collective". You just get to choose which "collective" you are part of.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":30,"user":"Joe","id":1310209,"date":"2026-07-28T08:26:19+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
but, for gurdjieff, the vast majority of humanity exists within a state of deep, mechanical ignorance, entirely reactive to external stimuli, incapable of any actual self-generated consciousness and are mainly driven by their base survival instincts. they’re completely unaware and incapable of actually helping themselves.
Click to expand...

He never said they would be that way forever.

opposed2flesh said:
in my mind, it’s almost justified and necessary for those which are “awake” to violate the free will and harvest the energy of whose which are “asleep”, for the greater good of progress. and can you really violate the free will of a being that barely possesses an actual active conscious will to begin with? it is absurd to treat those which are dormant and ignorant as if they are somehow fully aware individuals, as if they are capable of actually aiding themselves.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you'd advocate for stealing the wallet of a person who had been momentarily knocked unconscious rather than bringing them around. Classy behavior, and universally frowned upon throughout all of human history. You really want to put yourself in that grouping?

opposed2flesh said:
therefore, directing them is not necessarily a bad thing. letting them waist their energy is inefficient and achieves nothing of cosmic or structural value. refusing to exploit the sleeping masses out of a misplaced sense of moral sentimentality doesn’t elevate them, instead it just drags out the process.
Click to expand...

Again, it's like: "oh, that sleeping person is stupid for sleeping, he'll probably be asleep forever, so I'll just help myself to his possessions. Quite apart from any moral aspects of that approach, it fundamentally involves ignoring the facts. It's basically delusional.

opposed2flesh said:
and if the universe operates on a gradient where energy moves from lower to higher potentials, then “predation” and infringing upon free will is simply a universal law of physics translated into sociology
Click to expand...

Energy moves from lower to higher potentials, but it can be either freely given, or taken by force, that latter involving all sorts of BS narratives to justify it. Energy doesn't just "naturally" go places, it invariably involves different levels and types of consciousnesses to direct it.

What it comes down to, for people with your perspective, is whether or not you're interested in the truth or if you'd rather BS yourself (and try to BS others) into believing your self-serving (and fundamentally counter-factual) narrative.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310210,"date":"2026-07-28T08:35:19+0200","text":"
Joe said:
The vast majority of human beings are naturally inclined towards STO. It's just difficult to put into practice all the time because, apparently, being incarnated tends one towards STS due to the limitations and ignorance inherent in being in the body. So it's not dogma, it's not even a 'choice' really. It's part of human beings' nature to be inclined towards STO, because "no man is an island".
Click to expand...
if it were the case that the vast majority of humans were naturally more inclined towards the STO path and the soul’s essential, uncorrupted nature were purely that of STO, how would an entity successfully harvest or sustain a high-density STS state of existence once freed from their third density “biological container”?

in my mind, spiritual polarisation would cease to be an act of sovereign will and would instead become compliance with an innate script, and third density would likewise cease to be the density of “choice”

but i’ve certainly considered this and remember the writings of sufism where it stated that hell or “jahannam” is not merely a place of physical torment but is also a condition of spiritual estrangement from the divine, the soul's intense longing for return to its creator but remaining unable to so because of their self-imposed ignorance and their attachment to the ego. and ibn arabi also speculated that even hell is not entirely devoid of prime creator’s mercy. he suggested that hell may be a temporary state, which ultimately leads to a greater understanding of the creator and of existence itself","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":30,"user":"Joe","id":1310211,"date":"2026-07-28T08:52:30+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
if it were the case that the vast majority of humans were naturally more inclined towards the STO path and the soul’s essential, uncorrupted nature were purely that of STO, how would an entity successfully harvest or sustain a high-density STS state of existence once freed from their third density “biological container”?
Click to expand...

No one said it was fixed. I said it was "inclined", because that is the only ultimately sustainable future.

opposed2flesh said:
in my mind, spiritual polarisation would cease to be an act of sovereign will and would instead become compliance with an innate script, and third density would likewise cease to be the density of “choice”
Click to expand...

It's a choice between one or the other. So yeah, it's a kind of script. There are, in the end, "laws" required for things to work. Or maybe you're some kind of cosmic nihilist/anarchist?

opposed2flesh said:
but i’ve certainly considered this and remember the writings of sufism where it stated that hell or “jahannam” is not merely a place of physical torment but is also a condition of spiritual estrangement from the divine, the soul's intense longing for return to its creator but remaining unable to so because of their self-imposed ignorance and their attachment to the ego. and ibn arabi also speculated that even hell is not entirely devoid of prime creator’s mercy. he suggested that hell may be a temporary state, which ultimately leads to a greater understanding of the creator and of existence itself
Click to expand...

I don't think hell is a place of physical torment, that's just stupid. It's more likely to be a condition of "spiritual estrangement", as Arabi (and many others) say.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310212,"date":"2026-07-28T08:56:32+0200","text":"
Joe said:
He never said they would be that way forever.
Click to expand...
me neither, but wouldn’t it be more efficient? and, according to Ra, it remains almost impossible to “awaken” certain souls
Joe said:
Sounds like you'd advocate for stealing the wallet of a person who had been momentarily knocked unconscious rather than bringing them around. Classy behavior, and universally frowned upon throughout all of human history. You really want to put yourself in that grouping?
Click to expand...
quite the analogy, but, in reality, these people don’t really possess a “wallet” to begin with; they have no actual will or consciousness, and they remain spiritually dormant. to treat these mechanical, reactive people as if they are fully awakened and sovereign beings is to project a certain capacity for self-determination onto “vessels” that haven’t yet learned how to steer or to even function","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310214,"date":"2026-07-28T09:14:13+0200","text":"
Joe said:
No one said it was fixed. I said it was "inclined", because that is the only ultimately sustainable future.
Click to expand...

I certainly didn’t say it was fixed either, nor would I ever. however, your point made it seem as if you were stating it was a “fixed” outcome, especially when you said, “It’s not even a choice, really.”

Joe said:
It's a choice between one or the other. So yeah, it's a kind of script. There are, in the end, "laws" required for things to work. Or maybe you're some kind of cosmic nihilist/anarchist?
Click to expand...

wouldn’t the STO path be more in line with anarchism, considering you’re against order, coercive hierarchy and in favour of symbiotic communities and mutual aid? \":shock:\"

Joe said:
I don't think hell is a place of physical torment, that's just stupid. It's more likely to be a condition of "spiritual estrangement", as Arabi (and many others) say.
Click to expand...

that was quite literally my point","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":10092,"user":"lilyalic","id":1310216,"date":"2026-07-28T09:44:07+0200","text":"Do you have a superiority complex? The simple fact you said "I don't like the idea of letting go of my ego" shows your turmoil or lack of. You're letting your ego win, you're feeding into your own version of STS and believing that everybody else must be the same.

You seem to have a lot of knowledge but have you ever actually put any of that knowledge into practice? Have you ever truly done any work on yourself, on your own machine? On your own STS nature? Do you even want to?

We here, collectively, don't want to be like that. I certainly would not want to take advantage of people who are "asleep". How is taking advantage of anyone loving? How do you want to be?

opposed2flesh said:
wouldn’t the STO path be more in line with anarchism, considering you’re against order, coercive hierarchy and in favour of symbiotic communities and mutual aid? \":shock:\"
Click to expand...

No because that's delusional, and not acknowledging & accepting the way that things actually are. I suppose you could say we're doing the STO path the "fourth way", like Gurdjieff says - it's the fourth way because we're still living in the chaos, we're still living in the system and in a world primarily run and controlled by psychopaths. We are not delusional enough to believe we can change the entire system, but we can try our best to create our own realities and change ourselves.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":8018,"user":"luc","id":1310219,"date":"2026-07-28T10:17:48+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
wouldn’t the STO path be more in line with anarchism, considering you’re against order, coercive hierarchy and in favour of symbiotic communities and mutual aid? \":shock:\"
Click to expand...

That's the New Age caricature/perversion of the "STO" idea.

The Cs' material and overall philosophy is FULL of hierarchies and order (densities, higher vs. lower developed beings/humans, higher and lower souls, Organic Portals, unshakable cosmic/spiritual laws, different races in different states of development, etc. etc.)

A hypothetical STO community would consist of people who all strive towards advancing on the STO path, which implies honesty and effort, so yes, there would probably be less "coercive policing" involved, but that's because that path implies naturally accepting one's station, one's place in the hierarchy, because it's part of truth.

So the difference between STO and STS isn't order or hierarchy as such, but REAL cosmic order and hierarchy including self-awareness (STO) and order/hierarchy based on forceful subjugation, manipulation, cunning, the exercise of power not for the advancement of the group but for personal gain, backstabbing, self-delusion, lies etc. (STS).","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":7765,"user":"Goemon_","id":1310220,"date":"2026-07-28T10:25:51+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
perhaps it's quite different with this forum, for many here seem to have a purer form of understanding, concerning the two polarities. from the various supposedly sto-orientated people i’ve spoken with (outside of this forum), they seem to have quite a distorted view of the sto polarity and have a habit of unintentionally inverting the two paths. for example, i tried to explain, quite exhaustively, to a supposedly devout service-to-others oriented individual that even pursuing the 'positive' path is, in actuality, service-to-self, for you're doing it for the self and that it'll essentially render you lukewarm for an eternity, with no hope of progressing. he couldn’t comprehend this and, instead, chose to ignore what i had said.
Click to expand...
So, they are not doing something STO, they beleive they are. As the saying goes: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
opposed2flesh said:
in my mind, it’s almost justified and necessary for those which are “awake” to violate the free will and harvest the energy of whose which are “asleep”, for the greater good of progress. and can you really violate the free will of a being that barely possesses an actual active conscious will to begin with? it is absurd to treat those which are dormant and ignorant as if they are somehow fully aware individuals, as if they are capable of actually aiding themselves.
Click to expand...
Take this story about Gurdjieff (from memory so it may not be very accurate, but I think the gist of it is in there) :
A woman comes to Gurdjieff believing he have some predictive ability. She say she want to know what will happens to her in the future. Gurdjieff gives her what she really is asking for: a comforting lie. And it takes the money she's willing to give for the prediction.
It is not a breaking of free will and he gets money, which is a form of energy, that he will use to teach his students that are willing to go the STO path.

The devil is in the details.

My 2 cents","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":16382,"user":"fifty_five","id":1310224,"date":"2026-07-28T10:47:31+0200","text":"I find it very interesting that there is an increasing amount of discussion on this forum about mere Sto/STS rhetorical and theoretical disputes, devoid of any and all foundation based on simple being. Simple Sto being has no intention of winning, subjugating, or teaching fools. The Sto orientation is not based on desire or opportunistic speculation. In this sense, viewing it as based on desire—or even merely discussing it in those terms—is a pure STS projection, which legitimizes itself in order to nullify the fundamental difference, which is pure and simple respect for the free will . This is your realm, based on energy predation. Enjoy.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":8018,"user":"luc","id":1310226,"date":"2026-07-28T10:49:43+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
in my mind, spiritual polarisation would cease to be an act of sovereign will and would instead become compliance with an innate script, and third density would likewise cease to be the density of “choice”
Click to expand...

Look at it this way: the "natural" state is an inclination towards STO, simply because that's how the cosmic laws ultimately operate (balance of energy, you get what you give, karmic energies, there is no free lunch, etc.). Most people intuit that, and if you pay attention, you experience it and know it's true. However, STS spends a LOT of energy confusing people and leading them astray, burying their souls as it were in a pile of garbage. This includes hijacking our biology/biological responses. That's how they "harvest" energy, tricking us into going against the cosmic order and into self-delusion. So the choice still remains, because in an STS world like ours, while our natural expression might tilt towards STO, we are essentially re-programmed towards STS, a programming from which we can break free, which then gets us in touch with our natural inclination, sending us off a path of development towards STO.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":30,"user":"Joe","id":1310229,"date":"2026-07-28T11:11:27+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
me neither, but wouldn’t it be more efficient? and, according to Ra, it remains almost impossible to “awaken” certain souls
Click to expand...

Yeah, it would also be more "efficient" to get rid of kids or old people. One takes too long to be productive, the other hangs around too long being unproductive.

opposed2flesh said:
quite the analogy, but, in reality, these people don’t really possess a “wallet” to begin with; they have no actual will or consciousness, and they remain spiritually dormant. to treat these mechanical, reactive people as if they are fully awakened and sovereign beings is to project a certain capacity for self-determination onto “vessels” that haven’t yet learned how to steer or to even function
Click to expand...

How lucky those people are to have you to determine that they have no "consciousness". Even a damn rock has some consciousness. Do you even listen to yourself? Also, the operative word above is "yet". It's bizarre for you to suggest that because people haven't got "it" "yet", they should be dispensed with. So bizarre that I'm starting to think you're trolling, because I can't imagine someone being so obtuse. Btw, it could be said that a hallmark of a lack of "consciousness" is precisely the inability to think rationally. Look in the mirror dude. Then again, maybe you do that a bit too much.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310233,"date":"2026-07-28T11:34:22+0200","text":"
lilyalic said:
No because that's delusional, and not acknowledging & accepting the way that things actually are.
Click to expand...
and wouldn’t it be equally as delusional for him to insinuate that i’m a some sort of “cosmic anarchist”, which was the point of the comparison; it wasn’t to be taken seriously.

lilyalic said:
Do you have a superiority complex? The simple fact you said "I don't like the idea of letting go of my ego" shows your turmoil or lack of. You're letting your ego win, you're feeding into your own version of STS and believing that everybody else must be the same.
Click to expand...
i’m not a psychologist, I wouldn’t know. perhaps you’re conflating psychological anxiety with ontological individuation. from my perspective, an advanced ego is an efficient method for the creator to achieve a distinct, localised perspective of existence, not a sign of inner turmoil, as you suggest. rather, it represents structural integrity.

in my opinion, to surrender ones ego is to abandonment sovereignty, which is almost a cosmic declaration of ones unwillingness to participate in such a creation.

lilyalic said:
You seem to have a lot of knowledge but have you ever actually put any of that knowledge into practice? Have you ever truly done any work on yourself, on your own machine? On your own STS nature? Do you even want to?
Click to expand...
I certainly have, and have spent a considerable amount of time doing so. why else would I have started such a thread? because I wanted an alternative perspective, for the very purpose of “working on myself”, just like you, i’m assuming.

lilyalic said:
We here, collectively, don't want to be like that. I certainly would not want to take advantage of people who are "asleep". How is taking advantage of anyone loving? How do you want to be?
Click to expand...
I never said you did, nor have I insisted that you must. aren’t all actions those of love, even if distorted? actions which one might perceive as being inherently negative are ultimately just distortions of love. they are valid expressions of free will trying to learn, balance, and find the creator through separation. does there exist an alternative?

to quote Ra: “All of life, including murder, pillage, and rape is act after act of love: love distorted, love blocked, love asked to go where it would not go. Nevertheless, no matter how many times the stock seems to be hybridized and ruined, the basic root stock of all experience is love.”","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":30,"user":"Joe","id":1310238,"date":"2026-07-28T12:12:29+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
I certainly didn’t say it was fixed either, nor would I ever. however, your point made it seem as if you were stating it was a “fixed” outcome, especially when you said, “It’s not even a choice, really.”
Click to expand...


It's not really a choice because there are natural inclinations beyond the full awareness of the individual that 'weight' the choice. Therefore, it's not a fully "sovereign" choice. All that is because we're all largely clueless about how these things work and the part we play in them, at least at this stage.

You implied that your understanding is that it is fixed when you wondered why, if the vast majority of humans are inclined towards an STO path (because it makes sense in the context of the broader reality of no one being an "island"), how could someone "successfully harvest or sustain a high-density STS state of existence". That's why I said it wasn't "fixed". A person can be "inclined" towards STO and still end up "choosing" STS. It's not fixed.

opposed2flesh said:
wouldn’t the STO path be more in line with anarchism, considering you’re against order, coercive hierarchy and in favour of symbiotic communities and mutual aid? \":shock:\"
Click to expand...

STO is against order? Of what variety of illicit substances have you partaken to draw that conclusion? And I'm pretty sure you don't have to an anarchist to be against "coercive hierarchy", although it may depend on how you define that. Also, check most modern societies in the world today. You'll find lots of symbiotic communing and mutual aiding.

You're REALLY good at missing the crux of any given matter.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310239,"date":"2026-07-28T12:16:34+0200","text":"
Joe said:
How lucky those people are to have you to determine that they have no "consciousness". Even a damn rock has some consciousness. Do you even listen to yourself? Also, the operative word above is "yet". It's bizarre for you to suggest that because people haven't got "it" "yet", they should be dispensed with. So bizarre that I'm starting to think you're trolling, because I can't imagine someone being so obtuse. Btw, it could be said that a hallmark of a lack of "consciousness" is precisely the inability to think rationally. Look in the mirror dude. Then again, maybe you do that a bit too much.
Click to expand...
this was rather amusing to read; it made me laugh, actually. ff course, technically, they possess some form of consciousness, I haven’t doubted it. however, a third-density human consciousness that has neither been actualised nor exercised is barely a consciousness to begin with, especially not one deserving of its own autonomy, for I doubt they’d even know what to do with such freedom. the masses, in my opinion, need leaders and, above all, need to be directed. this, in my mind, is rational.

and considering that both the STS and the STO paths are the two primary focal lenses through which consciousness refracts the one single, original truth. one lens looks inward to recognise the unity of the whole, the other lens looks outward to maximise the absolute uniqueness of the part. both emerge from, and return to, the same unified source. and when the foundational axiom of reality is that all is one, the universe contains no external elements. there is only the creator experiencing itself, nothing more. so I doubt it has anything to do with, as you would suggest, being "obtuse" or "irrational" or, as a strange-looking man once remarked, a “creature”. perhaps just a different perspective

a beam of light passes through a prism and refracts into a spectrum of contrasting colours. neither the red nor the blue is "more true" or "more justified" than the other; they are simply different frequencies of the same light, that is all","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":30,"user":"Joe","id":1310240,"date":"2026-07-28T12:18:20+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
in my mind, spiritual polarisation would cease to be an act of sovereign will and would instead become compliance with an innate script, and third density would likewise cease to be the density of “choice”
Click to expand...

"inclination" not polarization. Really dude?

Btw, did you get any covid "vaccines"?","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":30,"user":"Joe","id":1310241,"date":"2026-07-28T12:27:51+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
a third-density human consciousness that has neither been actualised nor exercised is barely a consciousness to begin with,
Click to expand...

\":rotfl:\"Hilarious!....you're joking, right?

opposed2flesh said:
especially not one deserving of its own autonomy, for I doubt they’d even know what to do with such freedom. the masses, in my opinion, need leaders and, above all, need to be directed. this, in my mind, is rational.
Click to expand...

Just like children.

opposed2flesh said:
and considering that both the STS and the STO paths are the two primary focal lenses through which consciousness refracts the one single, original truth.
Click to expand...

Which is?...

opposed2flesh said:
one lens looks inward to recognise the unity of the whole, the other lens looks outward to maximise the absolute uniqueness of the part. both emerge from, and return to, the same unified source. and when the foundational axiom of reality is that all is one, the universe contains no external elements. there is only the creator experiencing itself, nothing more. so I doubt it has anything to do with, as you would suggest, being "obtuse" or "irrational" or, as a strange-looking man once remarked, a “creature”. perhaps just a different perspective
Click to expand...

From the lofty and rarefied heights of new age word salad, sure, it has nothing to do with being obtuse or irrational, since "all is illusion" and "all is one".

Down here however, and specifically in terms of me having to respond to your questions, it 100% concerns obtuseness and irrationality. But, that's the way it goes.

opposed2flesh said:
a beam of light passes through a prism and refracts into a spectrum of contrasting colours. neither the red nor the blue is "more true" or "more justified" than the other; they are simply different frequencies of the same light, that is all
Click to expand...

Amazing.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310242,"date":"2026-07-28T12:30:17+0200","text":"
Joe said:
You implied that your understanding is that it is fixed when you wondered why, if the vast majority of humans are inclined towards an STO path (because it makes sense in the context of the broader reality of no one being an "island"), how could someone "successfully harvest or sustain a high-density STS state of existence". That's why I said it wasn't "fixed". A person can be "inclined" towards STO and still end up "choosing" STS. It's not fixed.
Click to expand...
I certainly didn’t imply that; I was arguing against your point. If, as you implied, but then really didn’t imply, that it is somewhat 'fixed' (which I argued against), it was merely a hypothetical concept to show how stupid what you said actually was. So, as you’ve been projecting upon me, you missed the crux of the matter.
Joe said:
It's not really a choice because there are natural inclinations beyond the full awareness of the individual that 'weight' the choice. Therefore, it's not a fully "sovereign" choice. All that is because we're all largely clueless about how these things work and the part we play in them, at least at this stage.
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and where do these “natural inclinations”beyond our individual consciousness originally come from? is it not lifetime after lifetime of sovereign choice, willed by the creator. I would assume so, considering we inhabit a free-will universe
Joe said:
STO is against order? Of what variety of illicit substances have you partaken to draw that conclusion? And I'm pretty sure you don't have to an anarchist to be against "coercive hierarchy", although it may depend on how you define that. Also, check most modern societies in the world today. You'll find lots of symbiotic communing and mutual aiding.

You're REALLY good at missing the crux of any given matter.
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opposed2flesh said:
and wouldn’t it be equally as delusional for him to insinuate that i’m a some sort of “cosmic anarchist”, which was the point of the comparison; it wasn’t to be taken seriously.
Click to expand...
","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":30,"user":"Joe","id":1310250,"date":"2026-07-28T13:23:57+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
and where do these “natural inclinations”beyond our individual consciousness originally come from? is it not lifetime after lifetime of sovereign choice, willed by the creator. I would assume so, considering we inhabit a free-will universe
Click to expand...

"sovereign choice, willed by the creator"

Bit of a contradiction there.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":30,"user":"Joe","id":1310251,"date":"2026-07-28T13:25:34+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
it was merely a hypothetical concept to show how stupid what you said actually was
Click to expand...

The only stupidity on display here is yours. Or maybe it's just trolling. No doubt you have spent many hours and words in similar "conversation" elsewhere, to the same futile end.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":19101,"user":"EmeraldR","id":1310255,"date":"2026-07-28T13:43:08+0200","text":"In psychological terms, an individual who equates ego surrender with the abandonment of sovereignty and a refusal to participate in creation likely exhibits traits associated with ontological insecurity, narcissistic defensiveness, and a profound fear of annihilation.

Disorganized Attachment

Often resulting from caregivers who were both a source of fear and comfort, disorganized (fearful-avoidant) attachment creates a paradoxical drive: a deep longing for connection paired with a terror of it.

Approach-Avoidance: These individuals crave the peace that surrender might bring but are terrified that intimacy or alignment with a greater power will lead to destruction. The mindset serves as a preemptive strike: "I refuse to participate so that I cannot be destroyed by participation."

In essence, this mindset is not a philosophical choice but a survival adaptation. It is the psychological scar tissue formed when early experiences taught the individual that vulnerability equals extinction and that sovereignty is the only barrier against being erased.


1. Ontological Insecurity and Fear of Engulfment

This viewpoint strongly correlates with what existential psychiatrist R.D. Laing termed ontological insecurity. Such individuals lack a stable, internal sense of self and reality, leading to a pervasive fear that any loss of control will result in being "swallowed up" or obliterated by external forces.

Fear of Engulfment: They perceive surrender not as a voluntary alignment with a greater flow, but as a threat where their autonomy will be completely subsumed by the "will of others" or a divine entity.

Defensive Autonomy: To preserve their fragile sense of self, they maintain rigid boundaries and view any relinquishment of control as a precursor to implosion or petrification (becoming an object rather than a subject).

2. Narcissistic Defensiveness and Grandiosity

From the perspective of Self Psychology (e.g., Heinz Kohut), this stance may indicate a narcissistic personality structure that relies on grandiosity to function.

Narcissistic Injury: The suggestion to surrender the ego is experienced as a narcissistic injury—a traumatic blow to self-esteem that triggers narcissistic rage or withdrawal.

Illusion of Omnipotence: The individual equates "sovereignty" with the infantile belief in the omnipotence of their own wishes and thoughts. Surrender is interpreted as a humiliating defeat or "death" of the self (narcissistic mortification) rather than a maturation process.

Control as Safety: control is not just a preference but a vital defense mechanism against feelings of shame and inadequacy.

3. Annihilation Anxiety

The description of surrender as a "cosmic declaration of unwillingness to participate" reflects deep-seated annihilation anxiety.

Catastrophic Thinking: This anxiety involves the primal fear of imminent mental or physical destruction, dissolving, or losing self-cohesion.

Misinterpretation of Surrender: While spiritual traditions view surrender as a transition to a more authentic existence, this psychological profile interprets it literally as non-existence or suicide of the self. The "unwillingness to participate" is actually a refusal to face the terror of ego dissolution, which they equate with total extinction.

4. Psychological Reactance

The stance also demonstrates high psychological reactance, a motivational reaction to offers, persons, rules, or regulations that threaten or eliminate specific behavioral freedoms.

Resistance to Influence: The individual perceives the concept of surrender as an external demand that threatens their freedom, prompting an immediate and intense counter-reaction to reassert their sovereignty, even if that assertion is maladaptive.

In summary, this viewpoint characterizes a personality structure where the ego is rigidly identified with the totality of the self. Consequently, any proposed dissolution of the ego is perceived not as a spiritual liberation, but as an existential threat requiring total resistance to avoid psychological annihilation.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310256,"date":"2026-07-28T13:43:15+0200","text":"
Joe said:
"sovereign choice, willed by the creator"

Bit of a contradiction there.
Click to expand...
our sovereign, free will was certainly willed by the creator, considering it’s a free-will universe. the the creator "willed" the mechanism of free choice, but does not micromanage the outcome of your choice","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310257,"date":"2026-07-28T13:45:33+0200","text":"
Joe said:
Amazing
Click to expand...
thanks \":rolleyes:\"","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":17307,"user":"Asa","id":1310266,"date":"2026-07-28T15:06:01+0200","text":"
EmeraldR said:
In psychological terms, an individual who equates ego surrender with the abandonment of sovereignty and a refusal to participate in creation likely exhibits traits associated with ontological insecurity, narcissistic defensiveness, and a profound fear of annihilation.

Disorganized Attachment

Often resulting from caregivers who were both a source of fear and comfort, disorganized (fearful-avoidant) attachment creates a paradoxical drive: a deep longing for connection paired with a terror of it.

Approach-Avoidance: These individuals crave the peace that surrender might bring but are terrified that intimacy or alignment with a greater power will lead to destruction. The mindset serves as a preemptive strike: "I refuse to participate so that I cannot be destroyed by participation."

In essence, this mindset is not a philosophical choice but a survival adaptation. It is the psychological scar tissue formed when early experiences taught the individual that vulnerability equals extinction and that sovereignty is the only barrier against being erased.


1. Ontological Insecurity and Fear of Engulfment

This viewpoint strongly correlates with what existential psychiatrist R.D. Laing termed ontological insecurity. Such individuals lack a stable, internal sense of self and reality, leading to a pervasive fear that any loss of control will result in being "swallowed up" or obliterated by external forces.

Fear of Engulfment: They perceive surrender not as a voluntary alignment with a greater flow, but as a threat where their autonomy will be completely subsumed by the "will of others" or a divine entity.

Defensive Autonomy: To preserve their fragile sense of self, they maintain rigid boundaries and view any relinquishment of control as a precursor to implosion or petrification (becoming an object rather than a subject).

2. Narcissistic Defensiveness and Grandiosity

From the perspective of Self Psychology (e.g., Heinz Kohut), this stance may indicate a narcissistic personality structure that relies on grandiosity to function.

Narcissistic Injury: The suggestion to surrender the ego is experienced as a narcissistic injury—a traumatic blow to self-esteem that triggers narcissistic rage or withdrawal.

Illusion of Omnipotence: The individual equates "sovereignty" with the infantile belief in the omnipotence of their own wishes and thoughts. Surrender is interpreted as a humiliating defeat or "death" of the self (narcissistic mortification) rather than a maturation process.

Control as Safety: control is not just a preference but a vital defense mechanism against feelings of shame and inadequacy.

3. Annihilation Anxiety

The description of surrender as a "cosmic declaration of unwillingness to participate" reflects deep-seated annihilation anxiety.

Catastrophic Thinking: This anxiety involves the primal fear of imminent mental or physical destruction, dissolving, or losing self-cohesion.

Misinterpretation of Surrender: While spiritual traditions view surrender as a transition to a more authentic existence, this psychological profile interprets it literally as non-existence or suicide of the self. The "unwillingness to participate" is actually a refusal to face the terror of ego dissolution, which they equate with total extinction.

4. Psychological Reactance

The stance also demonstrates high psychological reactance, a motivational reaction to offers, persons, rules, or regulations that threaten or eliminate specific behavioral freedoms.

Resistance to Influence: The individual perceives the concept of surrender as an external demand that threatens their freedom, prompting an immediate and intense counter-reaction to reassert their sovereignty, even if that assertion is maladaptive.

In summary, this viewpoint characterizes a personality structure where the ego is rigidly identified with the totality of the self. Consequently, any proposed dissolution of the ego is perceived not as a spiritual liberation, but as an existential threat requiring total resistance to avoid psychological annihilation.
Click to expand...
I identify with an awful lot of that, but I'm not sure that surrendering the ego is the solution. I think developing a healthy one is.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":50,"user":"ScioAgapeOmnis","id":1310271,"date":"2026-07-28T15:57:45+0200","text":"opposed - this whole thread leads like the the type of justification the "PTB" likely use to continue to do what they do, corralling the "sheep", as they see them, to a finer order of control. It is also pretty much "might makes right" but replace might with consciousness. Also the children analogy doesn't fit for multiple reasons. First, we are all children, some are just slightly more conscious than others. Second, they're not YOUR children. Third, children need parents to survive - and it is the job of the parents to step back as soon as the child is able to do something on their own to prepare them for the world.

You might be thinking of robots. Humans are only temporarily mechanical - and Gurdjieff wouldn't have all these students and wouldn't put out all those books if he thought he was writing to actual machines. Using the sleeping person/wallet analogy - there's a ton of people like you, all wanting the wallet for themselves, all thinking they know better how to spend this money/energy than the sleeper (or you). So first, you'll be constantly fighting with others like yourself - welcome to STS competition. Then, you consider his money/energy "wasted" - but who are you to decide what is a waste? What if by using that energy, however mechanically, is how he learns lessons?

Your version sounds like the STS version of teaching people lessons. STS induce control/suffering, and through suffering, people learn. So STS justifies this because in the end people learn. And if learning is ultimately inevitable - either via loving gentle assistance when one asks, or through subjugation (which is what redirecting someone's energy for your purposes would be), it makes it seem that STO and STS ultimately achieve the same aim - those they interact with end up learning from the experience. And if you think of it like this - then it's very easy to get into "the end justifies the means" mentality, and get really confused about who you are and what you're really doing and why.

So it is ironic that you're calling others "sleepers" as you perform mental gymnastics and lack any sort of objectivity or clarity yourself. And this is why I said we're all children - you probably forgot that.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":2655,"user":"Seamus","id":1310272,"date":"2026-07-28T16:24:18+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
perhaps you’re right, “ambassador”. and i’ve read darkness over tibet multiple times, which was actually one of my favourite books for quite some time
Click to expand...
Many of the "questions" you've brought up on this thread are answered in those books. As an "ambassador" I was trying to give you some gentle hints to help you out.

opposed2flesh said:
and what assumptions would those be? and, to my knowledge, I haven’t been even the slightest bit confrontational; I only ever desired an alternative perspective. i’ve been rather polite and respectful, in my opinion..
Click to expand...
You assume you know things, that you're smarter than everyone else. You assume you understood what you've read. You are pushing your position, which is different from joining in the conversation. You've been "polite" and "respectful" in my opinion.

opposed2flesh said:
these two don’t necessarily have to be mutually exclusive, I suppose. there’s many which would surely enjoy and benefit from such an interaction, for what harm has it done?
Click to expand...
True! Lucky for you there are many here who have the time and patience to wade through your wordy posts and enjoy breaking down the flaws in your arguments. No doubt your superior intellect will easily overcome any and all challenges to your superior perspectives, but the conversation may benefit the community.

opposed2flesh said:
and I certainly will reread the wave, which was my intention since it was first suggested, including any other literature that was recommended
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\"👍\"","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":17361,"user":"seve","id":1310274,"date":"2026-07-28T16:30:16+0200","text":"Actually, you're having a blast (because you know exactly what this topic is all about). And we, on the forum, are fundamentally serious and dedicated (and yes, that's because we really enjoy it). Sometimes it's important to be serious.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":2914,"user":"Andrew","id":1310275,"date":"2026-07-28T16:33:14+0200","text":"I find it interesting that members continue to engage with Opposed. IMO, the point is being missed. The issue is no longer whether more flaws can be found in his arguments. Those have already been addressed repeatedly.

At this point, continuing to engage only gives him more attention, more material to argue against, and more opportunity to reinforce the polarity he says he wants to pursue. My last response was intended to cut that off because the exchange is now pulling time and energy away from the forum itself.

His stated values are clearly not collinear with this network, and I don’t see anything further to gain from continuing the discussion. Silence, or a moderator closing the thread, seems like the more appropriate response rather than continuing to feed the wolf.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":19101,"user":"EmeraldR","id":1310278,"date":"2026-07-28T16:58:22+0200","text":"
Asa said:
I identify with an awful lot of that, but I'm not sure that surrendering the ego is the solution. I think developing a healthy one is.
Click to expand...
yes -Heart/Mind connection .","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":19101,"user":"EmeraldR","id":1310280,"date":"2026-07-28T17:11:27+0200","text":"Collaborative curiosity here ..

"In what ways has your strong sense of control successfully protected you in the past?"



"If your defenses were a fortress, what specific treasures inside are you keeping safe?"



"What is the difference, for you, between being in control and feeling safe?"



"Are there moments when you feel safe enough that the need to hold on tightly softens, even just a little?"



"What would it look like to be the 'sovereign' of your experience without having to micromanage every thought that enters the kingdom?"

"What does 'creation' mean to you? Does it feel like something you must build, or something you can allow?"



"If you didn't have to take credit for a creation, would it still be valuable to you?"



"Is there a difference between 'losing yourself' in a task and 'losing yourself' entirely?"



"What small act of creation feels safe enough to experiment with, where the outcome doesn't define your worth?"


"How might your life change if you viewed yourself as the observer of creation rather than solely its architect?"","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":17462,"user":"Steph_rivers","id":1310290,"date":"2026-07-28T19:08:42+0200","text":"
Steph_rivers said:
Which is fine of course, as your existence is necessary for our learning and the balance of the universe itself.
Click to expand...
I state this again! I really enjoy threads like this because it brings so much out of me and into me that I have not been aware of.
Joe said:
Not necessarily. I think for most people there is plenty of time to get to the point where they feel this conflict.
Click to expand...
This is a sincere question, what do you mean when you say that? Are you saying that most people live their lives not feeling this conflict, or perhaps not aware of this conflict within them until it is brought to their awareness? Not to label them as a "certain lost cause" so to speak, as this guy is doing right now?","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":21593,"user":"Bronwen","id":1310300,"date":"2026-07-28T20:19:39+0200","text":"My apologies for not reading the entire thread before posting. @opposed2flesh , it was really quite interesting to read your point of view. From what I understand, choosing STS vs STO is a feather-light choice in that it is something innate to our essence. Once we strip away all the layers, the choice is a reflection of our inherent nature. If you've chosen STS, then you do you. But you might want to find another circle to run in as this forum is largely STO-aligned.

Something that comes up over and again in The Wave is that STS-aligned entities have a tendency toward wishful thinking. Your assumption that your place in the STS hierarchy will be by informed consent is something I would consider wishful thinking. Just as the sleeping masses use their free will to choose to be dissociated and asleep, somehow an STS entity mightier than you will use your free will to enslave you. I hope the strong wording here doesn't block the message.

I didn't choose the STO path because of what other people might think or based on any kind of external morality. I chose it because it was natural. I would rather network with people than use them, no matter what level of wakefulness they may be capable. I have learned things from quite distracted people. Everyone has something they can teach you. And all there is is lessons.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":2237,"user":"Oxajil","id":1310306,"date":"2026-07-28T20:34:34+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
yes, which i’ve, believe it or not, contemplated for quite some time.
Click to expand...
Are you serious here?
opposed2flesh said:
from a rational perspective, I perceive myself as being more advanced than those of the people I find myself amongst. it would certainly be more beneficial if I were in power and could somehow shepherd the masses. in my head, I often find myself belittling those around me; I truly cannot help but see them as inferior, which they surely are. In my personal life, I frequently find myself in these positions. and, from my own experience, affection and empathy are often not too useful.
Click to expand...
Your perception of yourself as superior does not make it so, and your tendency to see others as inferior does not make them inferior. This may feel true within your own perspective, but it does not reflect objective reality. From a psychological standpoint, this could be described as a distorted or reality-detached belief. Knowing this, does this make you a mechanical reactive individual?","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":30,"user":"Joe","id":1310327,"date":"2026-07-28T22:28:12+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
i’ve been rather polite and respectful, in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Yes, politely and respectfully attempting to undermine, with "conversive thinking" (Political Ponerology reference), a position arrived at, and chosen, by a group of people. You must think we just floated down the local river in a bubble.

Steph_rivers said:
Are you saying that most people live their lives not feeling this conflict
Click to expand...

I'd say so, at least they don't understand the conflict they do feel and experience as what it probably truly is. That's why I said there is probably a lot of time for people to get a clearer understanding of it. Although what precisely is meant by "most" is not really known. It might not be "most". Who knows.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":19101,"user":"EmeraldR","id":1310337,"date":"2026-07-29T00:05:39+0200","text":""conversive thinking" (Political Ponerology reference)

explanation/description.

Conversive thinking is a cognitive distortion defined in Andrew Łobaczewski’s political ponerology as the subconscious selection, blocking, and substitution of information to reach a preferred or emotionally convenient conclusion. It functions as a mechanism for privileged classes to ignore the moral and factual realities of their exploitation or injustice, effectively replacing objective truth with a self-serving narrative.

This process is characterized by paralogistics (flawed logic) and paramoralism (reversed ethics), where individuals or societies rationalize harmful actions as justified while viewing criticism as an attack. When this thinking spreads to the macro-social level, it leads to hysterical mentality, where the populace becomes hypersensitive to factual criticism, creating an internalized censorship that paves the way for pathocracy (rule by the psychopathically abnormal).

Key features include:

Blocking Conclusions: Rejecting logical outcomes that cause discomfort or challenge existing beliefs.

Substituting Premises: Altering initial facts or arguments to ensure a desired, self-serving result.

Conversive Morality: Blaming victims or reframing evil acts as moral necessities to maintain psychological equilibrium.

Mass Hysteria: A societal cycle where this cognitive distortion normalizes pathological behavior and suppresses natural critical faculties.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":7687,"user":"A Jay","id":1310340,"date":"2026-07-29T00:22:51+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
it is absurd to treat those which are dormant and ignorant as if they are somehow fully aware individuals, as if they are capable of actually aiding themselves.
Click to expand...

I agree, but the devil is in the details. Not treating those who're asleep as if they're fully aware individuals in practice means accepting people as they are and not expecting them to understand their limitations. It does not mean treating them as less human or as less than human. They are still people even if they're not as aware of themselves as those who're farther down the path of conscious suffering that leads towards a real "I".

That you so fundamentally misunderstand this very basic idea isn't surprising.

You stated at the beginning and you've repeated several times that you wanted an alternative perspective.

Yet, every time you've been given an opportunity to take a different perspective you've rejected it. At times you've even gone as far as attempting to undermine the offered perspective.

This means you are not seeking a new perspective even if your conscious intent was to seek a new perspective. What you want is something else. Something you're not aware of. Which means, obviously, that you are asleep.

But you will argue some detail and avoid the crux of the matter as your buffers prevent you from seeing what is plainly obvious so as to avoid the painful truth that you aren't as you imagine or believe yourself to be.

That is the way of things.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":2167,"user":"Alejo","id":1310352,"date":"2026-07-29T03:35:28+0200","text":"
A Jay said:
That you so fundamentally misunderstand this very basic idea isn't surprising.
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And I suppose the same could be said for Opposed2flesh also, clearly every bit of feedback given would've been noticed and appreciated by someone who is at least somewhat aware of themselves. This isn't the case, and it's not even awareness that is lacking (or rather, not only), because someone who is unaware but sincere about growing will heed advice or at least consider it, opposed2flesh is not only unaware, but firmly holds on to that lack of awareness as a source of pride.

I daresay nothing will get through.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310357,"date":"2026-07-29T04:21:00+0200","text":"
A Jay said:
Not treating those who're asleep as if they're fully aware individuals in practice means accepting people as they are and not expecting them to understand their limitations. It does not mean treating them as less human or as less than human. They are still people even if they're not as aware of themselves as those who're farther down the path of conscious suffering that leads towards a real "I".
Click to expand...
and why, in practice, must this be the case? is it a fundamental obligation, am I obliged by some sort of “cosmic law”? why must one accept stagnation and allow the “sleeping” masses to clog the evolution of life? i’m under no obligation to accept these people as they “are”, just as you, surely, are under no obligation to engage in acts which would attempt to “accelerate” this process. as one path may choose to serve the whole by uplifting its parts, the other may choose to organise and direct the whole by mastering its parts. neither is an objective violation of reality; they are simply two distinct, valid interpretations

A Jay said:
Yet, every time you've been given an opportunity to take a different perspective you've rejected it. At times you've even gone as far as attempting to undermine the offered perspective.
Click to expand...
perhaps your idea of “taking” is synonymous with passive assimilation, I can’t be sure. but is it required that I, in order to inspect and study an idea, must somehow yield or to grant it immunity from scrutiny? one can certainly analyse the internal architecture of a paradigm, trace the axiom to it’s logical conclusion and, if desired, reject its validity upon inspection

A Jay said:
What you want is something else. Something you're not aware of. Which means, obviously, that you are asleep.
Click to expand...
is mechanical sleep not characterised by a complete lack of self-observation and the reactive dominance of external stimuli? and didn’t gurdjieff teach that the human psyche is not a single, unified entity, but perhaps a shifting crowd of numerous, semi-autonomous “I”s? perhaps it’s entirely possible for one part of the mind to possess a genuine intellectual curiosity to examine a perspective, while another part enjoys the rigorous act of testing its limits and a third may seek amusement in the resulting dialogue. navigating multiple layers of intent is the very opposite of mechanical sleep, for it requires a degree of internal friction and self-awareness. true sleep, however, is uniform, uncritical, and unquestioning, passive and never striving to know something else, “something different”.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":2167,"user":"Alejo","id":1310359,"date":"2026-07-29T04:37:32+0200","text":"
opposed2flesh said:
is mechanical sleep not characterised by a complete lack of self-observation and the reactive dominance of external stimuli? and didn’t gurdjieff teach that the human psyche is not a single, unified entity, but perhaps a shifting crowd of numerous, semi-autonomous “I”s? perhaps it’s entirely possible for one part of the mind to possess a genuine intellectual curiosity to examine a perspective, while another part enjoys the rigorous act of testing its limits and a third may seek amusement in the resulting dialogue. navigating multiple layers of intent is the very opposite of mechanical sleep, for it requires a degree of internal friction and self-awareness. true sleep, however, is uniform, uncritical, and unquestioning, passive and never striving to know something else, “something different”.
Click to expand...
And apparently it is entirely possible for a mind to possess a genuinely dense way to avoid becoming self aware, like dreaming up a really detailed and wordy dream to ignore an alarm.

You've both missed and made Ajay's point, wow.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310362,"date":"2026-07-29T04:47:32+0200","text":"
Alejo said:
detailed and wordy dream to ignore an alarm.

You've both missed and made Ajay's point, wow
Click to expand...
and what alarm would that be? \":rolleyes:\"

I can’t tell if i’m being gaslit or not, this is almost kafkaesque..","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310365,"date":"2026-07-29T05:46:46+0200","text":"
EmeraldR said:
In psychological terms, an individual who equates ego surrender with the abandonment of sovereignty and a refusal to participate in creation likely exhibits traits associated with ontological insecurity, narcissistic defensiveness, and a profound fear of annihilation.
Click to expand...

there’s no shortage of psychologists on this forum, apparently. again, perhaps psychological anxiety is being conflated with ontological individuation. and i’ve already stated that I desire to participate and be a contributing force within creation:
opposed2flesh said:
again, perhaps not. I enjoy creation and all that comes with it. although, I suppose it would mainly be associated with the "negative" aspects of creation. I certainly don’t enjoy sharing, giving unconditional love or the thought of losing one's ego, which could also be viewed as another form of "dissolution", in a way. but regardless, life often feels quite effortless and light for me. i’m certainly not in opposition to it, nor do i desire to "overcome" or to destroy it, which is usually a pathological trait

I desire to contribute, and surely I do, for the foundational axiom of creation is to experience all possible facets of creation, regardless of whatever path one ultimately chooses to pursue
Click to expand...
-

EmeraldR said:
Approach-Avoidance: These individuals crave the peace that surrender might bring but are terrified that intimacy or alignment with a greater power will lead to destruction. The mindset serves as a preemptive strike: "I refuse to participate so that I cannot be destroyed by participation."
Click to expand...
certainly not, for I actively seek intimacy or alignment with a “greater power”, that being the creator

EmeraldR said:
This viewpoint strongly correlates with what existential psychiatrist R.D. Laing termed ontological insecurity. Such individuals lack a stable, internal sense of self and reality, leading to a pervasive fear that any loss of control will result in being "swallowed up" or obliterated by external forces.
Click to expand...
to encourage unity, surrender of the ego, and the dissolution of boundaries seems to me almost like premature entropy and a regression back into the undifferentiated mass. true ontological insecurity does not belong to those who guard their autonomy; it belongs to those who require some form of universal validation or perhaps the comforting thought that “dissolution” of the self brings. true insecurity, in my mind, can be attributed to those who desire to relinquish their autonomy and cease to function as individual units of creation

EmeraldR said:
Fear of Engulfment: They perceive surrender not as a voluntary alignment with a greater flow, but as a threat where their autonomy will be completely subsumed by the "will of others" or a divine entity.
Click to expand...
although, perhaps this is accurate","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310367,"date":"2026-07-29T06:07:57+0200","text":"
Alejo said:
And I suppose the same could be said for Opposed2flesh also, clearly every bit of feedback given would've been noticed and appreciated by someone who is at least somewhat aware of themselves. This isn't the case, and it's not even awareness that is lacking (or rather, not only), because someone who is unaware but sincere about growing will heed advice or at least consider it, opposed2flesh is not only unaware, but firmly holds on to that lack of awareness as a source of pride.

I daresay nothing will get through.
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why must you assume that someone should yield to your perspective? when disagreement is pathologised as "unawareness," does it not reveals more about the fragility of the accuser than the state of mind of the one critiquing it? believe it or not, even at 21, i’m far more aware than half of people on this forum, even if they may boast about studying this topic for “decades”

and as i’ve already stated:
opposed2flesh said:
perhaps your idea of “taking” is synonymous with passive assimilation, I can’t be sure. but is it required that I, in order to inspect and study an idea, must somehow yield or to grant it immunity from scrutiny? one can certainly analyse the internal architecture of a paradigm, trace the axiom to it’s logical conclusion and, if desired, reject its validity
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","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":2914,"user":"Andrew","id":1310368,"date":"2026-07-29T06:12:42+0200","text":"At this point, IMO, Opposed has already demonstrated that the forum can be provoked into reactivity. Every member who continues engaging only reinforces the point.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20471,"user":"Paranthas","id":1310370,"date":"2026-07-29T06:50:39+0200","text":"In my humble opinion you need to go back to basics. What is the basics? That adamic humans once (maybe for not a long time) were 3D STO and I might be wrong but that was free will choice, until it became addicted to flesh and its pleasures etc then became prey for the serpent/predator.

So in the logic of we are STS and this modality is how we live anyway why not expand in this point of view is ignoring what came before. Everyone has free will but only the “Gnosis” true knowledge can show you is that however you may like and continue your life in the STS way but aa Ra material says all it offers is slavery and entropy.

All I have to say after careful review you may decide that you like the way things are and ignore the objective reality or be a part of it and go your happy way continue being STS , its status quo anyway , because it doesn't require “The Work” or constant struggle or moral obligation (choosing it not in sake of reward but of your conscience) you may just be and I don’t think there are wrong answers but conscience ones.

STO way requires sacrifice and genuine yearning for a change , hardship or simply being more heart centered. Its all duality which side you choose and embrace it and be happy with it","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":2050,"user":"T.C.","id":1310373,"date":"2026-07-29T07:14:58+0200","text":"
Joe said:
Yes, politely and respectfully attempting to undermine, with "conversive thinking" (Political Ponerology reference), a position arrived at, and chosen, by a group of people. You must think we just floated down the local river in a bubble.
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EmeraldR said:
"conversive thinking" (Political Ponerology reference)

explanation/description.

Conversive thinking is a cognitive distortion defined in Andrew Łobaczewski’s political ponerology as the subconscious selection, blocking, and substitution of information to reach a preferred or emotionally convenient conclusion. It functions as a mechanism for privileged classes to ignore the moral and factual realities of their exploitation or injustice, effectively replacing objective truth with a self-serving narrative.

This process is characterized by paralogistics (flawed logic) and paramoralism (reversed ethics), where individuals or societies rationalize harmful actions as justified while viewing criticism as an attack. When this thinking spreads to the macro-social level, it leads to hysterical mentality, where the populace becomes hypersensitive to factual criticism, creating an internalized censorship that paves the way for pathocracy (rule by the psychopathically abnormal).

Key features include:

Blocking Conclusions: Rejecting logical outcomes that cause discomfort or challenge existing beliefs.

Substituting Premises: Altering initial facts or arguments to ensure a desired, self-serving result.

Conversive Morality: Blaming victims or reframing evil acts as moral necessities to maintain psychological equilibrium.

Mass Hysteria: A societal cycle where this cognitive distortion normalizes pathological behavior and suppresses natural critical faculties.
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When I used the term ‘character disorder’, I was really thinking of ‘conversive thinking’.

Though the two are not mutually exclusive, when it comes to Opposed the former is subjective and potentially wrong; but the latter is inarguably accurate and gets to the crux of what I wanted to convey.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":20732,"user":"opposed2flesh","id":1310379,"date":"2026-07-29T08:53:54+0200","text":"
Paranthas said:
In my humble opinion you need to go back to basics. What is the basics? That adamic humans once (maybe for not a long time) were 3D STO and I might be wrong but that was free will choice, until it became addicted to flesh and its pleasures etc then became prey for the serpent/predator.
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to my knowledge, isn’t “adamic” just the metaphysical structure of a soul? any soul that possesses an individualised consciousness, a permanent higher self and the higher emotional and intellectual chakras associated with an individualised soul, would be considered “adamic”?

only a specific soul group upon earth was involved in the fall, that i’m aware of. and as of now, earth is currently inhabited by multiple different soul groups, all with their own unique karmic burdens, experiences and established polarities. and the aryans from kantek/maldek are usually reserved for the more “aggressive souls”, considering they had always existed in the material and individualised within an advanced STS society

Paranthas said:
however you may like and continue your life in the STS way but aa Ra material says all it offers is slavery and entropy.
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Ra certainly didn’t say anything of the sort, it appears as if most on the forum speak entirely from an emotionally-fuelled perspective. and if the STS path offered only that of entropy, could it still function as a valid path of evolution? according to Ra, true entropy belongs to those within the "sinkhole of indifference”, that fail to make the choice

Paranthas said:
STO way requires sacrifice and genuine yearning for a change , hardship or simply being more heart centered. Its all duality which side you choose and embrace it and be happy with it
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yes, you’re so brave and righteous

perhaps I was correct in my assumption:
opposed2flesh said:
it usually comes across as an egotistical, 'holier than thou' echo-chamber of self-righteousness and moral superiority, which usually serves the purpose of making themselves temporarily feel good, without achieving any actual spiritual progress
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","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":4717,"user":"Jones","id":1310389,"date":"2026-07-29T10:33:26+0200","text":"Curious about what 'flesh' it is that you are opposed to? Do you mean inhabiting flesh or eating it? Or something else?","attachments":[],"reactions":[]},{"user_id":7765,"user":"Goemon_","id":1310397,"date":"2026-07-29T11:41:18+0200","text":"Fun with Google AI:
Prompt: What Gurdjieff may have say about opposed2flesh from what he is saying here: "this page" ?
Answer:
Based on George Gurdjieff’s core teachings, he would likely categorize the user opposed2flesh as a classic example of someone engaged in "wiseacring" and trapped in a "wordy dream."
Here is what Gurdjieff would say about opposed2flesh's behavior in that forum thread:

1. He Is "Wiseacring" (Intellectual Masturbation)
Gurdjieff coined the term "wiseacring" to describe people who use complex language, philosophical jargon, and theories to avoid actual, practical self-work.

2. He is Trapped in "Formatory Thinking"
Gurdjieff warned against the "formatory apparatus"—the part of the brain that operates like a cheap computer, matching labels, definitions, and theories without any real emotional or physical understanding.

3. He Has No "Magnetic Center" and Rejects the "Alarm"
As another forum member (Alejo) brilliantly pointed out, opposed2flesh is "dreaming up a really detailed and wordy dream to ignore an alarm." Gurdjieff taught that when a person is asleep, they require an external shock (a teacher, a group, or direct feedback) to wake up.

Summary
If Gurdjieff were sitting in that room, he would likely tell opposed2flesh to stop talking entirely, go clean the toilets, chop wood, or perform grueling physical tasks. He would see him as a "man in a sheet"—someone who uses esoteric knowledge as a decoration for his vanity rather than a tool for true internal friction and transformation.","attachments":[],"reactions":[]}]}